2014 SSA/US Tasking Analysis

At this point, if the SSA is "supporting" assigned tasks (and not their extinction), why not create a rule (or guideline at least) which requires at least 10%? That would be tangible support. That would have a lot more meaning that the ABSOLUTELY NOTHING that is being done to protect them from reaching zero in 2015 (a very real possibility based in the data over the past 10 years).


Sean, So you really want the SSA contest rules to state that if a 5 day regional contest doesn't get in at least one AT task, then the entire contest is invalid? A national contest 1-2 days? Nobody would get a finishing score? Nobody gets a pilot ranking score based on their finish? They have just wasted a weeks vacation (or more) to satisfy your demands?
You keep banging on the SSA and rules committee to mandate AT's. Shouldn't you be trashing the contest CDs for failing to not call an AT? Last year at one nationals, the CD (ex-world team member) publicly stated that he was going to call 1/3 ATs. The inconsistent weather caused no AT tasks. Nobody complained and everyone supported his decisions.
If an AT percentage was mandated at contests, I'd never fly another contest again. I won't waste my time if the results could be invalidated. I know I'd not be alone.

On Sunday, February 1, 2015 at 11:19:59 AM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 8:15:22 PM UTC-5, Karl Striedieck wrote:


Karl, please look at the 2014 Opinion Poll.

Do you want to see more or less of Assigned Tasks?
50% more
38% same
8% lees

Do you want to see more or less MAT tasks with few assigned points?
11% more
35% same
52% less

I did not make up these numbers. It seems Sean's views are not in minority.

I think you belong to the 8% group .

I personally like flying Assigned Tasks or MAT tasks with more points than one could use.

AK

As a dear gliding friend of mine used to say "That's all well and good when you're sitting by the fire with a beer in hand..." Point being, it's great to say that you're adamantly in favor of ATs when you're taking a survey from the comfort of your living room. It's another entirely when you're responsible for the safety and well-being of 30 or so other pilots.

If you really believe so strongly in this, then I'd recommend you find a contest willing to let you be the CD. Then, when faced with a group of pilots of wildly differing skills, a forecast that's questionable, and 70% of pilots without crews - go ahead and stick to your guns. I've called days with 90% landouts. Makes boring days in a conference room look downright attractive

And hey, just so we're clear, I'm not some risk averse Safety Nazi. I think we should be pushing the limits and testing skills. I'm just not convinced that ATs are THE answer.

FWIW: The 2011 Standard Class Nationals featured pretty much the best, most consistent weather seen on the East Coast in a decade. Typical days were 5kts or better to 6,000 feet. Our CD (Ray Galloway) was absolutely adamant that we needed to fly a lot more ATs if we were going to be competitive on the World stage, and damned if he wasn't going to be the guy to set us straight. You know how many AT's we ended up with - one (out of 8 flying days). He had them called on at least 2 other days, but as soon as there were some early hickups in terms of reports from the advisors, he changed to Turn Areas. Worth contemplating...

P3

On Monday, February 2, 2015 at 2:26:43 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
On Sunday, February 1, 2015 at 11:19:59 AM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Saturday, January 31, 2015 at 8:15:22 PM UTC-5, Karl Striedieck wrote:


Karl, please look at the 2014 Opinion Poll.

Do you want to see more or less of Assigned Tasks?
50% more
38% same
8% lees

Do you want to see more or less MAT tasks with few assigned points?
11% more
35% same
52% less

I did not make up these numbers. It seems Sean's views are not in minority.

I think you belong to the 8% group .

I personally like flying Assigned Tasks or MAT tasks with more points than one could use.

AK

As a dear gliding friend of mine used to say "That's all well and good when you're sitting by the fire with a beer in hand..." Point being, it's great to say that you're adamantly in favor of ATs when you're taking a survey from the comfort of your living room. It's another entirely when you're responsible for the safety and well-being of 30 or so other pilots.

If you really believe so strongly in this, then I'd recommend you find a contest willing to let you be the CD. Then, when faced with a group of pilots of wildly differing skills, a forecast that's questionable, and 70% of pilots without crews - go ahead and stick to your guns. I've called days with 90% landouts. Makes boring days in a conference room look downright attractive

And hey, just so we're clear, I'm not some risk averse Safety Nazi. I think we should be pushing the limits and testing skills. I'm just not convinced that ATs are THE answer.

FWIW: The 2011 Standard Class Nationals featured pretty much the best, most consistent weather seen on the East Coast in a decade. Typical days were 5kts or better to 6,000 feet. Our CD (Ray Galloway) was absolutely adamant that we needed to fly a lot more ATs if we were going to be competitive on the World stage, and damned if he wasn't going to be the guy to set us straight. You know how many AT's we ended up with - one (out of 8 flying days). He had them called on at least 2 other days, but as soon as there were some early hickups in terms of reports from the advisors, he changed to Turn Areas. Worth contemplating...

P3

Correction - we did in fact have two ATs in the 2011 Standard Class Nationals. Interestingly, the second one turned out to be a significant undercall, in which we only used about half of the available soaring day. Time on course around 2.5hrs because speeds ended up being way higher than the forecast would indicate. Other tasks were consistently 3.5 - 4 hr. So again, another wrinkle that we used to routinely put up with when we only (mostly) had ATs in the bag of tricks.

As a dear gliding friend of mine used to say "That's all well and good when you're sitting by the fire with a beer in hand..." Point being, it's great to say that you're adamantly in favor of ATs when you're taking a survey from the comfort of your living room. It's another entirely when you're responsible for the safety and well-being of 30 or so other pilots.

If you really believe so strongly in this, then I'd recommend you find a contest willing to let you be the CD. Then, when faced with a group of pilots of wildly differing skills, a forecast that's questionable, and 70% of pilots without crews - go ahead and stick to your guns. I've called days with 90% landouts. Makes boring days in a conference room look downright attractive

And hey, just so we're clear, I'm not some risk averse Safety Nazi. I think we should be pushing the limits and testing skills. I'm just not convinced that ATs are THE answer.

FWIW: The 2011 Standard Class Nationals featured pretty much the best, most consistent weather seen on the East Coast in a decade. Typical days were 5kts or better to 6,000 feet. Our CD (Ray Galloway) was absolutely adamant that we needed to fly a lot more ATs if we were going to be competitive on the World stage, and damned if he wasn't going to be the guy to set us straight. You know how many AT's we ended up with - one (out of 8 flying days). He had them called on at least 2 other days, but as soon as there were some early hickups in terms of reports from the advisors, he changed to Turn Areas. Worth contemplating...

P3

Well said P3. I whole heartily agree.

Sean, your not "getting beat up" by anyone. Considering KS is offering his time and highly valued competition guidance, your acceptance might be advisable.

The SSA does not choose the CD. The contest management does. Most CM's have meetings as to who they will choose as the CD. When the SSA sanctions the contest, then the CD is confirmed. Along with input from advisers and weatherperson, they choose what they feel is a "fair and equal" task for that particular day and those entrants who are their.

When the task is chosen, the advisers can be addressed by the entrants, as how they feel on the called task. Tasks have been changed numerous times when entrants feel something better could be called. Numerous times I have seen this.

I don't think any CD or any entrant would want a "lock down" on task calls. Also, I don't see how anyone could want this who has not or even flown their. The RC has in their past posts offer guidance on this. They can only offer guidance to the CD. Most RC's are not at the regional events.

Let me share as receiving guidance from one top guy, Dick Johnson, many years ago. I have always been grateful as it lead to a outstanding friendship.

Folks are coming forward to "help you" with information, not to beat you up.. To think otherwise, is not what the Society is about.

Best. #711.

I think we very much need a written SSA guideline but not a mandate. The SSA should publish something similar to the FAI recommendations for task ratios within the class rules. If the SSA does actually want to support continued ATs (a task type clearly under attack by some and down to roughly 2%), then yes, I feel they should put something "on the record" quickly or lose it. This guideline would help CD's with task selection guidelines and would clearly state that Assigned Tasks (Racing Tasks) are an important part of Soaring Society of America competition. It would also help pilots understand what kind of tasking to expect at various contest levels.

I think â…“ ATs at a US Nationals should be the goal if the weather is good to be honest. Kudos to that CD! MATs are simply not a racing tasks.. Many (see opinion poll) US pilots still strongly value racing tasks despite the lobbying against them for many years.

Much depends on the class. Pure class Nationals (15, 18, Open and standard (if it hangs on)) should try and run AT's on the best weather days (say 30%), for sure! Club Class should aim for the same ratio (one of the main points the US club class now exists after a lot of arguing...). Regionals, on outstanding days, maybe. But a long MAT is a good compromise at a regional IMO. AT's for Sports Class Nationals. Why not? They got one in this summer! But long MATs are probably a better option in most locals.

Remember we are talking about a very small number of tasks here. 4 in 2014.. I would be looking to see something like 10-20 in 2015 and moving forward, around 10-15 (mainly at Nationals). I am not calling for the extinction of the OLC tasks or that TAT. I am only arguing for a few more AT's that we are running today and a reversal of the trend towards ZERO SSA/US ATs...

On Monday, February 2, 2015 at 1:37:16 PM UTC-7, Sean Fidler wrote:
I think we very much need a written SSA guideline but not a mandate. The SSA should publish something similar to the FAI recommendations for task ratios within the class rules. If the SSA does actually want to support continued ATs (a task type clearly under attack by some and down to roughly 2%), then yes, I feel they should put something "on the record" quickly or lose it. This guideline would help CD's with task selection guidelines and would clearly state that Assigned Tasks (Racing Tasks) are an important part of Soaring Society of America competition. It would also help pilots understand what kind of tasking to expect at various contest levels.

A10.3.1.2 ‡ Task-calling considerations for the CD.
General
- Select good (i.e. knowledgeable, fair and decisive) task advisors, and use them.
- Use the best available weather sources; get weather updates as appropriate.
- Using the help of weather forecasts and task advisors:
-- Estimate the times at which soarable conditions will start and end.
-- Estimate the times when tasks are likely to open (depends on launch order, class size, launch efficiency, etc.).
-- From these estimates, calculate a maximum time on task (from task-opening time to the estimated end of the day).
-- Estimate the speed that the winners will achieve.
- Select three tasks appropriate to the predicted conditions. At the pilots' meeting, name the longest of these as the primary task.
- Aim for a mix of tasks, balanced across all task types.
- Be ready to modify estimates - and to change tasks - in response to how the day develops.
- Be ready to launch 30 minutes before the earliest possible start of the day.
- If required, launch the sniffer as early as is practical. Launch the fleet as soon as the conditions are acceptable.

Sean,

Please spend time and read the rules, its already in the guidance.

- Aim for a mix of tasks, balanced across all task types.

Best, #711.

Not sure if this has been mentioned but the assigned tasks at Sports Nationals last year was a direct response to pilots wanting an assigned task. I was weather man and in the task meetings each morning. A few of the days we would've liked an assigned task but there was enough variability in the forecast that we got a long MAT instead.

I really like the long MAT BTW ever since I flew the one that 711 called at Moriarty.

Just for reference on that day, check the contest report. It was very close to being an overcall for club, I was in the slowest glider, started immediately and flew the last leg in the blue to get home along with everyone else. There were a few landouts in the modern class who started later and had a longer task.

I join the chorus saying that of you want more AT's ask your CD.

Thanks Matt.

I think my point has been made. I stand with the clear majority of US contest glider pilots.

We are not asking for all ATs. Nor are we asking for the elimination of other tasks many would like to fly. We simply want "SOME" AT's. Greater than 2% or counting them on one hand!

Blasphemy to some but reasonable and important to preserve for the clear majority (see US RC's own opinion poll).

Sean

On Tuesday, February 3, 2015 at 11:22:21 AM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
Thanks Matt.

I think my point has been made. I stand with the clear majority of US contest glider pilots.

We are not asking for all ATs. Nor are we asking for the elimination of other tasks many would like to fly. We simply want "SOME" AT's. Greater than 2% or counting them on one hand!

Blasphemy to some but reasonable and important to preserve for the clear majority (see US RC's own opinion poll).

Sean

I've been reading this interesting thread with pleasure. It reflects a lot of good thinking, good argument and good writing -- and the fact that its the middle of winter and contest pilots have time on their hands.

Here are my take-aways, plus a couple of points that have been suggested, but warrant some emphasis:

1. Sean's review of the tasking data is very useful in terms of telling us what is really being called. It seems clear that while the AT is not dead, it is on life support. It was fun to fly an assigned task with a bunch of other gliders, even though it often turned into a series of gaggles, with the more independent pilots striking out on their own.

2. There are a several factors pushing pretty hard away from the AT, even though its ultimately a decision for the CD and pilots in each contest, as several have pointed out.

3. One factor is the lack of crews for many contest pilots, meaning that pilots would prefer to be flying a task with a good chance of finishing. The TAT and MAT fit that objective better. (Another, related factor is the aging of the contest pilot population. Old guys really prefer to get home. I speak from experience.)

4. A second factor is the diverse performance levels of gliders at many contests that result from combined classes, which results from a drop off in the number of competitors in the FAI classes. With the diversity comes the need for greater flexibility in tasking if a high percentage of completed tasks is a goal. See #3 above. Both the MAT and TAT allow more pilot choice and enhance the possibility of completing. They also, in my view, allow more sophisticated analysis and flying, for reasons Karl described.

5. A third factor is the popularity of the OLC and its effect on pilot thinking. There is now a generation of pilots who believe the most enjoyable soaring involves the go-anywhere, turn-anywhere principles of OLC. They are entitled to their opinion. It would be a mistake to disregard its impact on sanctioned soaring contests, both in reduction of contestants (who needs to go to a contest when you can be scored in OLC any day of the year) and in terms of expectations about tasking.

6. The long MAT realizes many of the racing benefits that Sean sees in the AT, while providing a higher percentage of finishers, and allowing a level of pilot choice. I think it is the best compromise between the AT advocates and those who prefer the TAT. If it is to be effective, however, as a contest vehicle (that is, a task that requires everyone to more or less fly in the same task area at the same time) it has to be something more than a one or two turnpoint task. We have a local season-long contest at the Chicago Glider Club using regional sports class rules with some home-grown modifications. One of the mods is that our MAT tasks require that the credited completed distance not be greater than twice the distance of the assigned turnpoints making up the first portion of the task. That reduces, but does not eliminate, the fly-anywhere issue. Perhaps a suggestion for the RC would be to consider a similar limitations on MAT tasks. (Whether 50% is the right number is open to debate, of course.)

7. Hang on guys, its only a little over a month to the Seniors.

Regards, Mike Shakman (SH)