Spins in Libelles 301 & 201

Given all the threads on spins lately, I would like to know about 201 and
301 spins. I have flown both (3 flights) and have not "tickled the tiger".
They both required more then average attention to coordination. Shall I
assume the spin readily, and do anything peculiar? Asssume CG in mid range.
Thanks

--
Hartley Falbaum

No problems for me when my 301 spun.

David Grah
Bishop California

"HL Falbaum" wrote in message
news:5gdVb.193983$Rc4.1613691@attbi_s54...
Given all the threads on spins lately, I would like to know about 201 and
301 spins. I have flown both (3 flights) and have not "tickled the tiger".
They both required more then average attention to coordination. Shall I
assume the spin readily, and do anything peculiar? Asssume CG in mid
range.
Thanks

--
Hartley Falbaum

Had a 201B for a while, spun it a few times, it tends
to oscillate in pitch a fair amount which can be a
little disconcerting if you're not expecting it..


At 00:54 08 February 2004, Marry Daniel Or David Grah
wrote:
No problems for me when my 301 spun.

David Grah
Bishop California

'HL Falbaum' wrote in message
news:5gdVb.193983$Rc4.1613691@attbi_s54...
Given all the threads on spins lately, I would like
to know about 201 and
301 spins. I have flown both (3 flights) and have
not 'tickled the tiger'.
They both required more then average attention to
coordination. Shall I
assume the spin readily, and do anything peculiar?
Asssume CG in mid
range.
Thanks

--
Hartley Falbaum

"HL Falbaum" wrote in message news:5gdVb.193983$Rc4.1613691@attbi_s54...
Given all the threads on spins lately, I would like to know about 201 and
301 spins. I have flown both (3 flights) and have not "tickled the tiger".
They both required more then average attention to coordination. Shall I
assume the spin readily, and do anything peculiar? Asssume CG in mid range.
Thanks

I have been flying my H301 for the last 18years and have not yet
encountered any problems with spins or spin recovery. My ship gives me
plenty of warning, i.e. rumbling noise and stick shaking. If not
heeded, the spin will follow rather quickly. Recovery does not require
anything else than neutralizing the controls. However, since the spins
are pretty steep, one is looking at mother earth and the speed could
get out of hand if a GENTLE pull-up is not initiated soon.

Ulrich Neumann
Libelle 'GM'

"HL Falbaum" wrote in message news:5gdVb.193983$Rc4.1613691@attbi_s54...
Given all the threads on spins lately, I would like to know about 201 and
301 spins. I have flown both (3 flights) and have not "tickled the tiger".
They both required more then average attention to coordination. Shall I
assume the spin readily, and do anything peculiar? Asssume CG in mid range.
Thanks

Generally, I don't find our 201 particularly prone to spinning: I have
unintentionally stalled it while circling in rough thermals more times
than I probably should, but never with any real spin developing.

I have only really spun it once, and that was while asking for it. I
tried (at 4000 feet) what would happen if I flew with full airbrakes
and the stick held completely back against the rear stop (silly, but
someone said that you could do that). It actually just sat there,
pretty stable and decending at a high rate, until I hit a little bit
of turbulence: WHAM.

It turned what felt like half inverted (probably wasn't), fell through
and spun. No big issue - putting the airbrakes back in and doing a
standard recovery worked fine.

It did surprise me a bit that it did roll a bit far and took some time
before putting the nose down and entering a proper spin, but that may
well have been the effect of having the airbrakes deployed (memo to
self: don't fly uncoordinated and stalled on approach with airbrakes
deployed :-)

Since that episode we have added the winglet option to our 201 which
does make the stall behaviour (especially in thermalling turns) very
docile, compared to the non-wingletted version. But, if my fading
memory serves me correct, it wasn't spin-prone before we added the
winglets. But it may feel that way though - it can feel a little
wobbly when thermalled too slowly. In general, the different Libelles
that I have flown tend to be quite a bit different in handling.

Incidentially, our 201 is placarded against intentional spins (I don't
recall whether that is in the handbook as well?).

And, anyway, I wouldn't spin any glider intentionally with only three
flights on the type. I'd like to get to know it a bit before doing
that.

Bo Brunsgaard
Std. Libelle OY-XKB

To follow up on my earlier comments, I also did not
find it a spin prone glider..

It's interesting that yours was placarded against deliberate
spinning - ours was not. And although they're on different
registers (and I sold my share in 1997) it would be
interesting to know why your is..

Mark

At 13:24 09 February 2004, Bo Brunsgaard wrote:
'HL Falbaum' wrote in message news:...
Given all the threads on spins lately, I would like
to know about 201 and
301 spins. I have flown both (3 flights) and have
not 'tickled the tiger'.
They both required more then average attention to
coordination. Shall I
assume the spin readily, and do anything peculiar?
Asssume CG in mid range.
Thanks

Generally, I don't find our 201 particularly prone
to spinning: I have
unintentionally stalled it while circling in rough
thermals more times
than I probably should, but never with any real spin
developing.

I have only really spun it once, and that was while
asking for it. I
tried (at 4000 feet) what would happen if I flew with
full airbrakes
and the stick held completely back against the rear
stop (silly, but
someone said that you could do that). It actually just
sat there,
pretty stable and decending at a high rate, until I
hit a little bit
of turbulence: WHAM.

It turned what felt like half inverted (probably wasn't),
fell through
and spun. No big issue - putting the airbrakes back
in and doing a
standard recovery worked fine.

It did surprise me a bit that it did roll a bit far
and took some time
before putting the nose down and entering a proper
spin, but that may
well have been the effect of having the airbrakes deployed
(memo to
self: don't fly uncoordinated and stalled on approach
with airbrakes
deployed :-)

Since that episode we have added the winglet option
to our 201 which
does make the stall behaviour (especially in thermalling
turns) very
docile, compared to the non-wingletted version. But,
if my fading
memory serves me correct, it wasn't spin-prone before
we added the
winglets. But it may feel that way though - it can
feel a little
wobbly when thermalled too slowly. In general, the
different Libelles
that I have flown tend to be quite a bit different
in handling.

Incidentially, our 201 is placarded against intentional
spins (I don't
recall whether that is in the handbook as well?).

And, anyway, I wouldn't spin any glider intentionally
with only three
flights on the type. I'd like to get to know it a bit
before doing
that.

Bo Brunsgaard
Std. Libelle OY-XKB

In article ,
"Marry Daniel or David Grah" wrote:

No problems for me when my 301 spun.

David Grah
Bishop California

"HL Falbaum" wrote in message
news:5gdVb.193983$Rc4.1613691@attbi_s54...
Given all the threads on spins lately, I would like to know about 201 and
301 spins. I have flown both (3 flights) and have not "tickled the tiger".
They both required more then average attention to coordination. Shall I
assume the spin readily, and do anything peculiar? Asssume CG in mid
range.
Thanks

--
Hartley Falbaum




301's are placarded against spins, I think due to the ineffective
divebrakes.

I've had two 301's. Both would stall and spin if asked to. Flap position
makes a big difference in stall characteristics. Flaps full up
(negative) and it stall like a Grob twin. Full back stick, shaking like
hell, ailerons still effective. Flaps in thermalling position and it
stalls fairly abruptly albeit with fair warning. Spin entry is normal,
the nose goes pretty much straight down. Rotation rate is fairly fast.
If you hold the stick back in the spin, the rudder will be completely
ineffective and feels like it is disconnected. Stick forward and the
rudder becomes effective. Recovery is then no different than a 1-26
(except for the acceleration ; ).

I once had an interesting experience recovering from a spin in a 301.
Upon stopping the rotation, I came back on the stick a little too soon.
I got an accelerated stall and the glider made another turn very fast.
Pretty much like a snap roll going straight down. Got my attention.

My 301 is not placarded against spinning. Could it be that the serial number
is a factor? I have Nr. 23.

Regards,
Roderick

Mark Stevens wrote in message ...
To follow up on my earlier comments, I also did not
find it a spin prone glider..

It's interesting that yours was placarded against deliberate
spinning - ours was not. And although they're on different
registers (and I sold my share in 1997) it would be
interesting to know why your is..

I'll have a look in the manual tonight (it's stashed away for the
winter somewhere in my office at home), and see if that says anything.
But as far as memory (however fading) serves me, there is nothing
prohibiting spinning in there.

The placard, for all I can see, appears to be an original, supplied
from the factory (same typeface, color etc). It says "No aerobatic
manouvers, including spins". Originally the Libelle had its first home
in Sweden, if that may have anything to do with it?

As for serial number, it's # 566. If there is a difference related to
that, I would expect it to be between the 201 and the 201B version?

Anyway, it doesn't matter a lot to me - I don't spin it. Having worked
hard to win altitude (some of us must hard work to make up for lack of
talent....), I don't want to blow it away again by spinning. I prefer
using it to glide to some far-away muddy farmer's field and land there
:-(

Bo

In article ,
"Rod" wrote:

My 301 is not placarded against spinning. Could it be that the serial number
is a factor? I have Nr. 23.

Regards,
Roderick



Mine current 301 is Nr. 25 and is placarded against spins. My previous
301 was Nr. 28. It too was placarded against spins. I imported Nr 25
from Germany three years ago. Nr. 28 has lived it's whole life in the
USA.