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#31
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Resource for choosing a plane?
wrote in message
news%lvf.2414$q26.1856@trnddc03... [snip] As to questions of added costs associated with retractable gear and CS prop: RG will probably end up costing $200-300 extra per year for hull insurance. Based on our experience (normally aspirated 1979 Arrow IV) extra maintenance averages about $250/year. However, we save about $1500 per year in fuel costs (flying 150 hrs), compared to similar performance FG aircraft (e.g. C-182, Dakota). The CS prop probably costs about $1.50-2.00/hr in extra maintenance costs (largely the cost of overhaul). However, it is a must for turbocharged aircraft. Elliott: Thanks, that's the sort of rough numbers I've been looking for viz c/s vs fixed prop, retract vs fixed gear, etc. That sounds like, all told $1K / year "extra" for the retract (ins + mx) and c/s prop (mx). Is your $10/hr "savings" based on going the same speed but burning ~2.5 - 3 gph less to do it in a retract (less drag, I assume)? I'm still getting a feel for performance comparisons (hence this thread!), I don't want to make a bad assumption on what you're saying.... What about turbo vs normal aspiration? Another poster suggested ~$40K for an overhaul of a (specific model) t/c engine, which seems to be ~2x what I've read elsewhere. What about annual & "surprise" mx cost differences? If I'm understanding you correctly, the differences (not including turbo) should be about a wash for flying 100 hrs/yr. Even if it's not (or if I fall into the apparently common category of overestimating my annual flying), $1K / yr extra doesn't scare me.... Thanks! -- Doug "Where am I to go/Now that I've gone too far?" -- Golden Earring, "Twilight Zone" (my email is spam-proofed; read the address and make the appropriate change to contact me) |
#32
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Resource for choosing a plane?
Heh. Those two titles just arrived from Amazon today. "The Illustrated
Buyer's Guide to Used Airplanes" by Bill Clarke is on backorder, they tell me to expect it in a week or two.... I've got LOTS of reading & learning yet to do before I write a check.... Thanks! -- Doug "Where am I to go/Now that I've gone too far?" -- Golden Earring, "Twilight Zone" (my email is spam-proofed; read the address and make the appropriate change to contact me) "Mike Noel" wrote in message . .. You might check some of the 'Buying an Airplane' books at your local bookstore. 'Buying and owning your own airplane' by Ellis and 'Airplane Ownership' by Wanttaja have some useful info. -- Best Regards, Mike |
#33
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Resource for choosing a plane?
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#34
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Resource for choosing a plane?
wrote)
In almost all situations (except for all-out automotive performance and aircraft useage), turbochargers on gasoline engines are a dumb idea. I'm not opposed to owning an aircraft with one, but it would be turbo-normalized at most... no full-time turbo since you have to throw away HP with CR just to gain it back (and burn more fuel, require more octane, and cook your jugs). What is CR? Montblack |
#35
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Resource for choosing a plane?
Montblack wrote:
: wrote) : In almost all situations (except for all-out automotive performance and : aircraft useage), turbochargers on gasoline engines are a dumb idea. I'm : not opposed to owning an aircraft with one, but it would be : turbo-normalized at most... no full-time turbo since you have to throw : away HP with CR just to gain it back (and burn more fuel, require more : octane, and cook your jugs). : What is CR? Compression Ratio. The TSIO-360 runs I think a 7:1 compression ratio vs. the 8.5 (8.9?)-ish for the normally-aspirated Lyc IO-360. -Cory -- ************************************************** *********************** * Cory Papenfuss * * Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student * * Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University * ************************************************** *********************** |
#36
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Resource for choosing a plane?
wrote)
What is CR? Compression Ratio. The TSIO-360 runs I think a 7:1 compression ratio vs. the 8.5 (8.9?)-ish for the normally-aspirated Lyc IO-360. Thanks. I know what compresion ratio is and knew what the numbers were, I've just never seen CR like that before. My mind was all over the map trying to figure that one out - and it was right in front of me. Doh! Montblack |
#37
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Resource for choosing a plane?
On 5-Jan-2006, "Douglas Paterson" wrote: Is your $10/hr "savings" based on going the same speed but burning ~2.5 - 3 gph less to do it in a retract (less drag, I assume)? I'm still getting a feel for performance comparisons (hence this thread!), I don't want to make a bad assumption on what you're saying.... Yes. Our 200 HP Arrow delivers about the same cruise and climb performance as a 235 HP C-182 or Dakota, and burns about 3 GPH less per hour. That is a BIG difference with today's fuel costs. Of course, some of the 182s and Dakotas can use less expensive mogas, but only if you have a reliable and reasonably convenient source. The 182 and Dakota also have a higher useful load, but much of that is eaten up by the requirement to carry much more fuel for a given mission, especially with IFR reserves (and particularly in the West where it can be an hour's cruise between a destination and a workable IFR alternate). What about turbo vs normal aspiration? Another poster suggested ~$40K for an overhaul of a (specific model) t/c engine, which seems to be ~2x what I've read elsewhere. What about annual & "surprise" mx cost differences? I've never owned a TC airplane, so can't give you even antecdotal numbers for comparison. We recently put a factory rebuilt ("zero time") engine in the Arrow. Total cost worked out to around $23K, including removal and reinstallation, new oil lines, and that sort of stuff. We also overhauled the prop at the same time, which cost an additional $3K or so. I imagine that costs for a Continental TSIO-360 would be a bit higher. However, you will probably get fewer hours out of a TC engine simply because they spend more time putting out higher power, and at higher temps. We got over 2000 hours out of our "old" Lyc. IO-360 engine without any big maintenance costs. (Never had to pull a cylinder, etc.) I doubt that a Continental TSIO-360 would be able to deliver that kind of service. There is a good article that touches on this by Richard Collins in the December edition of Flying Magazine. If I'm understanding you correctly, the differences (not including turbo) should be about a wash for flying 100 hrs/yr. Even if it's not (or if I fall into the apparently common category of overestimating my annual flying), $1K / yr extra doesn't scare me.... As long as you remember to put the gear down for landing.... Actually, the real cost potential for RG is not routine maintenance but rather the consequences of gear failure (i.e. failure to extend/lock) for landing. This is true for both human error and mechanical failure. That is why you pay higher insurance premiums for the RG. We had just such an instance a few years ago in the Arrow when the nosewheel failed to fully extend. A backed-out bolt in the gear scissors got hung up on the gear trunion. Anyway, all repairs were covered by insurance, and our premiums didn't even go up the next year. (It helped that the pilot -- a partner, not me -- was able to stop the engine with the prop horizontal prior to landing, so there was no engine/prop damage.) The way I see it, since the likelihood of injury or death in a gear failure incident in a light single is very low, the risk is purely financial, and that is covered by insurance. -- -Elliott Drucker |
#38
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Resource for choosing a plane?
wrote in message
news:cDIvf.287$sa4.102@trnddc07... [snipped great discussion of extra costs associated w/ complex vs non-complex SEL] Elliott: Great info, thanks!! -- Doug "Where am I to go/Now that I've gone too far?" -- Golden Earring, "Twilight Zone" (my email is spam-proofed; read the address and make the appropriate change to contact me) |
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