PowerFlarm Update?

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 12:30:05 PM UTC-5, Benedict Smith wrote:

Good luck with that, most OGN tracking stations will probably go off air
until
the OGN tracker is released rather than support FLARM out of their own
pocket!!!

So gliders would need ANOTHER device (the OGN tracker) to be shown on the OGN realtime map? Is that realistic?

Privacy was a non issue, if you put your details on the (previously) open
and
public flarmnet database then you presumably had no worries about your
public data being public!
If you did not put your data on the database then your glider was assigned
a
random and temporary ID so there was no issue with privacy as you could
only be identified if someone watched you take off and manually noted what

random ID you had been assigned for that day! If someone was going to that

length then OGN tracking would be the least of your worries.

Apparently it's an issue in Germany? From my US perspective, I don't really see the problem (since all transponders are tracked and visible online).


There was NO hacking involved, all the data was transmitted in clear text the anti collision protocol is the only "proprietary " part and OGN were
not interested in that) the airband is a public and unlicensed one so there was no wrongdoing.

Not according to Aldo Cernezzi in his Gliding International article. Perhaps you should submit a rebuttal.

There has been no similar criticism of the other tracking network (it's
name
escapes me for the moment) that uses FLARM recievers to feed a central
server, this won't be affected by the update and can access all the data
with
ease!

Are you referring to the Flarm-Radar Project?

The trouble started when FlarmNet changed the terms of their open database
and started to slander OGN with the barely hidden support of their
financial
backers (FLARM)
There were a lot of lies put about to try and discredit the OGN network.

Hmm, It would be interesting to hear FLARM's side of this story!

And you think Flarm acted incorrectly? Really?

YES

Why?

Kirk

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 4:04:58 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:

And with the paucity of Flarms in the US glider fleet, it really will be a while before this interesting evolution of Flarm impacts the general US gliding world. I do expect it to become a big player at US contests, where Flarm is pretty much mandatory.

Kirk

"mandatory" where did you read that Kirk? That is not true.

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 4:38:30 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

"mandatory" where did you read that Kirk? That is not true.

Andrzej, I said "pretty much mandatory". That is true.

Flarm is highly encouraged, there is a rental program, and peer pressure (along with the tactical advantage of knowing where the competition is) pretty much takes care of it.

But of course you are right that currently, Flarm is not "mandatory" at a US contest.

IMO, it should be.

Kirk
66

Let me ask you something, Tim.
You buy a new home appliance, and everything goes quite ok for some years.
One day there is a message saying that it is ceasing to work in a month, and
you need to subscribe a new licence and practically sign a contract if you
want to keep using it.
Do things work like that in the US where you live? Not in italy, not in
Europe I can tell you.
Here we can refuse to sign the contract, and either give back the item or
keep using it as before, which is the most reasonable thing to do normally.

So people here is saysing they wont accept the new User Licence Agreement,
not at all.
And guess what will happen.


"Tim Newport-Peace" wrote in message
...

Flarm Firmware Updates have always been free. What makes you think that
will change?

The advice from Flarm has always be to take the free updates every year,
but that does not mean your Flarm will cease to work if you dont, that only
happens every N years.

You seem to be seeing problems where none exist.


At 18:49 14 March 2015, pcool wrote:
Very interesting perspective indeed. You buy a device, and it is not
written it expires.
Now see the END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT just released.
Do you want to download the firmware (otherwise the old one expires)? Then

you must agree on the new rules.
Point 3 . It is understood that the software has an expiry date and must
be
replaced once per year.

It is not written anywhere that the firmware will be always provided for
free, forever.
On the contrary, they put a pramble: an update to the similar TCAS system

costs $20.000-$50.000 per aircraft
And now you also need to be part of the Aircraft Maintenance Program.
great deal, indeed.




"kirk.stant" wrote in message
...

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 10:18:50 AM UTC-5, pcool wrote:
Now I understand, thank you very much.
Well it seems OGN is going to pay back the privacy issue. Their OGN
tracker
is going to expire in a few days, and they will now pass through Flarm
to
get the data decrypted.
Stealth mode was easy to accomplish, very strange, and a very sad
conclusion. But I agree that the privacy goes first, it wasnt that hard
to
deal with, at all.

I really don't understand your point. Flarm develops a proprietary
product

that gets adopted by a large part of the gliding community, then gets
hacked
and used by a bunch of techno glider geeks. Flarm responds by protecting
their (as in, THEY DEVELOPED AND OWN IT) technology and responds to a
market
demand (tracking) by enhancing their system to provide features such as
privacy for those who were previously affected by the (possibly illegal)
hacked OGN network.

And you think Flarm acted incorrectly? Really?

Interesting perspective.

Kirk
66

This entire issue of shutting down the system and requiring an upgrade just smacks of poor judgement and lousy engineering.

If a member of my engineering staff suggested that a fault be purposefully added to a safety related piece of equipment that would cause it to stop operating at a particular time, I would fire that person immediately. Serious software developers simply do not do this sort of thing.

The whole "we need everyone to upgrade at the same time to change the communication protocols" argument simply means that they did not do a very good job designing the communication protocols. The system should be designed so that it can evolve.

Either way, FLARM looks pretty bad in my book. I won't have one in my personal ship.

Mark

On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 8:40:53 AM UTC-4, pcool wrote:
Let me ask you something, Tim.
You buy a new home appliance, and everything goes quite ok for some years.
One day there is a message saying that it is ceasing to work in a month, and
you need to subscribe a new licence and practically sign a contract if you
want to keep using it.
Do things work like that in the US where you live? Not in italy, not in
Europe I can tell you.
Here we can refuse to sign the contract, and either give back the item or
keep using it as before, which is the most reasonable thing to do normally.

So people here is saysing they wont accept the new User Licence Agreement,
not at all.
And guess what will happen.


"Tim Newport-Peace" wrote in message
...

Flarm Firmware Updates have always been free. What makes you think that
will change?

The advice from Flarm has always be to take the free updates every year,
but that does not mean your Flarm will cease to work if you dont, that only
happens every N years.

You seem to be seeing problems where none exist.


At 18:49 14 March 2015, pcool wrote:
Very interesting perspective indeed. You buy a device, and it is not
written it expires.
Now see the END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT just released.
Do you want to download the firmware (otherwise the old one expires)? Then

you must agree on the new rules.
Point 3 . It is understood that the software has an expiry date and must
be
replaced once per year.

It is not written anywhere that the firmware will be always provided for
free, forever.
On the contrary, they put a pramble: an update to the similar TCAS system

costs $20.000-$50.000 per aircraft
And now you also need to be part of the Aircraft Maintenance Program.
great deal, indeed.




"kirk.stant" wrote in message
...

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 10:18:50 AM UTC-5, pcool wrote:
Now I understand, thank you very much.
Well it seems OGN is going to pay back the privacy issue. Their OGN
tracker
is going to expire in a few days, and they will now pass through Flarm
to
get the data decrypted.
Stealth mode was easy to accomplish, very strange, and a very sad
conclusion. But I agree that the privacy goes first, it wasnt that hard
to
deal with, at all.

I really don't understand your point. Flarm develops a proprietary
product

that gets adopted by a large part of the gliding community, then gets
hacked
and used by a bunch of techno glider geeks. Flarm responds by protecting
their (as in, THEY DEVELOPED AND OWN IT) technology and responds to a
market
demand (tracking) by enhancing their system to provide features such as
privacy for those who were previously affected by the (possibly illegal)
hacked OGN network.

And you think Flarm acted incorrectly? Really?

Interesting perspective.

Kirk
66



Paolo, where do I find the new agreement? I would like to read it.

Upgraded my portable PF to V6. Now my
HP-310 running the latest release of LK8000 doesn't recognize flarm.
Brad

On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 10:51:37 AM UTC-4, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 8:40:53 AM UTC-4, pcool wrote:
Let me ask you something, Tim.
You buy a new home appliance, and everything goes quite ok for some years.
One day there is a message saying that it is ceasing to work in a month, and
you need to subscribe a new licence and practically sign a contract if you
want to keep using it.
Do things work like that in the US where you live? Not in italy, not in
Europe I can tell you.
Here we can refuse to sign the contract, and either give back the item or
keep using it as before, which is the most reasonable thing to do normally.

So people here is saysing they wont accept the new User Licence Agreement,
not at all.
And guess what will happen.


"Tim Newport-Peace" wrote in message
...

Flarm Firmware Updates have always been free. What makes you think that
will change?

The advice from Flarm has always be to take the free updates every year,
but that does not mean your Flarm will cease to work if you dont, that only
happens every N years.

You seem to be seeing problems where none exist.


At 18:49 14 March 2015, pcool wrote:
Very interesting perspective indeed. You buy a device, and it is not
written it expires.
Now see the END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT just released.
Do you want to download the firmware (otherwise the old one expires)? Then

you must agree on the new rules.
Point 3 . It is understood that the software has an expiry date and must
be
replaced once per year.

It is not written anywhere that the firmware will be always provided for
free, forever.
On the contrary, they put a pramble: an update to the similar TCAS system

costs $20.000-$50.000 per aircraft
And now you also need to be part of the Aircraft Maintenance Program.
great deal, indeed.




"kirk.stant" wrote in message
...

On Saturday, March 14, 2015 at 10:18:50 AM UTC-5, pcool wrote:
Now I understand, thank you very much.
Well it seems OGN is going to pay back the privacy issue. Their OGN
tracker
is going to expire in a few days, and they will now pass through Flarm
to
get the data decrypted.
Stealth mode was easy to accomplish, very strange, and a very sad
conclusion. But I agree that the privacy goes first, it wasnt that hard
to
deal with, at all.

I really don't understand your point. Flarm develops a proprietary
product

that gets adopted by a large part of the gliding community, then gets
hacked
and used by a bunch of techno glider geeks. Flarm responds by protecting
their (as in, THEY DEVELOPED AND OWN IT) technology and responds to a
market
demand (tracking) by enhancing their system to provide features such as
privacy for those who were previously affected by the (possibly illegal)
hacked OGN network.

And you think Flarm acted incorrectly? Really?

Interesting perspective.

Kirk
66



Paolo, where do I find the new agreement? I would like to read it.

Never mind I found it. It is interesting that if you go to Flarm.com website you see this.

"As with many other avionics systems, all FLARM devices require continual firmware updates. However, unlike many other systems, we supply our updates for free (an update to the similar TCAS system costs $20.000-$50.000 per aircraft). This is made possible thanks to a common firmware in all different FLARM devices.

Previously, updates were required every 2-4 years according to an announced schedule. This was however problematic for many owners and maintenance organizations, since there was only a short time span in which the update could be made.

From the March 2015 Update, every FLARM device needs to be updated with the latest firmware version at least once per year (rolling 365 days). This has to be part of the Aircraft Maintenance Program (AMP). The entry in the AMP is to be made during installation. If you have a FLARM installation that is not previously monitored by the AMP, an entry should be made as soon as possible.

Firmware updates contain general improvements, collision algorithm improvements, radio protocol improvements and added features. The precise list of changes accompany each update."

On the other hand PowerFlarm.aero website has a link to software update without any other information at all. No changes to agreement and no other text.

On Sun, 15 Mar 2015 08:05:01 -0700, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

"As with many other avionics systems, all FLARM devices require
continual firmware updates. However, unlike many other systems, we
supply our updates for free (an update to the similar TCAS system costs
$20.000-$50.000 per aircraft). This is made possible thanks to a common
firmware in all different FLARM devices.

Previously, updates were required every 2-4 years according to an
announced schedule. This was however problematic for many owners and
maintenance organizations, since there was only a short time span in
which the update could be made.

From the March 2015 Update, every FLARM device needs to be updated with
the latest firmware version at least once per year (rolling 365 days).
This has to be part of the Aircraft Maintenance Program (AMP). The entry
in the AMP is to be made during installation. If you have a FLARM
installation that is not previously monitored by the AMP, an entry
should be made as soon as possible.

Firmware updates contain general improvements, collision algorithm
improvements, radio protocol improvements and added features. The
precise list of changes accompany each update."

On the other hand PowerFlarm.aero website has a link to software update
without any other information at all. No changes to agreement and no
other text.

Thats pretty much the case in the Classic FLARM section of flarm.com too.

In that section I can see a revised set of conditions, a link to the .fw
file, but nothing else. Where's the promised change log and either a
revised manual or a statement about the applicability of the V 5.00
manual?

Since from now on there is to be a rolling 12 month upgrade process, we
can only assume that with v6.00 FLARM has introduced forward
compatibility with the immediately following release and, in a years
time, we can also expect backward compatibility with the immediately
preceding release as well: I don't see how anything else can be allow a
12 month rolling release schedule to work. However, it would be nice if
they made this explicit.

EASA/ARC question: has anybody except FLARM mentioned the imminent
inclusion of FLARM upgrades in the AMP? This is the first I've heard of
it.

Since my glider passed its ARC renewal inspection last week without
anybody quizzing me about the installed FLARM's serial no or its firmware
upgrade status, I'm guessing that this is news to everybody else as well.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Sunday, March 15, 2015 at 8:13:39 AM UTC-6, wrote:
This entire issue of shutting down the system and requiring an upgrade just smacks of poor judgement and lousy engineering.

If a member of my engineering staff suggested that a fault be purposefully added to a safety related piece of equipment that would cause it to stop operating at a particular time, I would fire that person immediately. Serious software developers simply do not do this sort of thing.

The whole "we need everyone to upgrade at the same time to change the communication protocols" argument simply means that they did not do a very good job designing the communication protocols. The system should be designed so that it can evolve.

Either way, FLARM looks pretty bad in my book. I won't have one in my personal ship.

Mark

Mark, I think you are being a little bit unfair.

As with TCAS, the FLARM system must have every unit running the same firmware for the system to continue to operate reliably therefore everyone must update at the same time. While it's possible to imagine forward and backward firmware compatibility, it's probably better for everyone to run the same version.

Consumer and corporate IT systems can run different versions of firmware/software and get away with it.