H201 Libelle and wing dropping

Since 3 month I am proud owner of a H201B with 17m wingspan and
"Speizklappen". The glider I owned for 4 years, before i bought the
Libelle was a Astir CS77. I like the handling of the Libelle very
much, the only point I really have problems with, is that the Libelle
loves to drop a wing at the beginning of aero tow. Every take off that
a friend or me made with the glider was close to a aborted take-off.
Other Libelle Pilots said, I should try to open the air breaks for the
first 100m, but none of them owns a 17m version, which has extra
weight on the outer side of the wing because of the wingtip extension.

I am not used to this wing dropping by the ASTIR so I hope I can get
some additionell advice here.

"ruediger" wrote in message
om...
Since 3 month I am proud owner of a H201B with 17m wingspan and
"Speizklappen". The glider I owned for 4 years, before i bought the
Libelle was a Astir CS77. I like the handling of the Libelle very
much, the only point I really have problems with, is that the Libelle
loves to drop a wing at the beginning of aero tow. Every take off that
a friend or me made with the glider was close to a aborted take-off.
Other Libelle Pilots said, I should try to open the air breaks for the
first 100m, but none of them owns a 17m version, which has extra
weight on the outer side of the wing because of the wingtip extension.

I am not used to this wing dropping by the ASTIR so I hope I can get
some additionell advice here.

It's an accepted fact that extending the spoilers or selecting negative flap
will enhance aileron control at low speeds. The magnitude of the effect
differs for various gliders so consultation with pilots experienced with a
particular glider is advised.

That said, there is another factor that may be involved.

I recall watching the grid depart at a regional contest where each glider in
turn dropped the upwind wing. There was about a 8 knot crosswind component.

After watching the show for a while I started to realize that the tugs prop
blast was drifting with the wind and striking the gliders down wind wing
causing it to rise violently. The onset of the effect occurred when the
glider had rolled about half the length of the tow rope or just after the
wing runner had released the wing tip.

When my turn came, I got ready to stuff in a lot of down wind aileron at
just the point where the glider encountered the tugs prop blast. It worked
nicely and I didn't drop a wing like those before me. Now I'm always ready
for the drifting prop blast.

Bill Daniels

On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 15:59:52 GMT, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:


"ruediger" wrote in message
. com...
Since 3 month I am proud owner of a H201B with 17m wingspan and
"Speizklappen". The glider I owned for 4 years, before i bought the
Libelle was a Astir CS77. I like the handling of the Libelle very
much, the only point I really have problems with, is that the Libelle
loves to drop a wing at the beginning of aero tow. Every take off that
a friend or me made with the glider was close to a aborted take-off.
Other Libelle Pilots said, I should try to open the air breaks for the
first 100m, but none of them owns a 17m version, which has extra
weight on the outer side of the wing because of the wingtip extension.

I am not used to this wing dropping by the ASTIR so I hope I can get
some additionell advice here.

It's an accepted fact that extending the spoilers or selecting negative flap
will enhance aileron control at low speeds. The magnitude of the effect
differs for various gliders so consultation with pilots experienced with a
particular glider is advised.

That said, there is another factor that may be involved.

I recall watching the grid depart at a regional contest where each glider in
turn dropped the upwind wing. There was about a 8 knot crosswind component.

After watching the show for a while I started to realize that the tugs prop
blast was drifting with the wind and striking the gliders down wind wing
causing it to rise violently. The onset of the effect occurred when the
glider had rolled about half the length of the tow rope or just after the
wing runner had released the wing tip.

When my turn came, I got ready to stuff in a lot of down wind aileron at
just the point where the glider encountered the tugs prop blast. It worked
nicely and I didn't drop a wing like those before me. Now I'm always ready
for the drifting prop blast.

Bill Daniels

In the commercial operation I used to run I saw this same wing drop
due to prop blast in the longer winged planes, specifically the Nimbus
2 and a ASW-22. I kept a 300 ft rope just for towing these guys. The
longer rope solved the problem.

You may wish to make up a 100 foot "weak link" to be used when towed,
(Assuming they are starting with a 200ft.) It would most likely
solve your problem.

Find the junior/cadet who is a good sprinter for wingman otherwise the
airbrake tip does help as well as using a wing runner who only lightly
supports the wing as opposed to the gripper or thrower. It realy does help
to brief the wing runners - I have been given nasty scares once or twice
this year by various antics from people who really dont know what they are
doing.
If you use the airbrake tip it is best to tell the control & tower before
takeoff otherwise you might give the tuggie a heartattack and/or end up with
lots of helpfull souls telling you that your airbrakes are open..
rgds

"ruediger" wrote in message
om...
Since 3 month I am proud owner of a H201B with 17m wingspan and
"Speizklappen". The glider I owned for 4 years, before i bought the
Libelle was a Astir CS77. I like the handling of the Libelle very
much, the only point I really have problems with, is that the Libelle
loves to drop a wing at the beginning of aero tow. Every take off that
a friend or me made with the glider was close to a aborted take-off.
Other Libelle Pilots said, I should try to open the air breaks for the
first 100m, but none of them owns a 17m version, which has extra
weight on the outer side of the wing because of the wingtip extension.

I am not used to this wing dropping by the ASTIR so I hope I can get
some additionell advice here.

JC wrote in message ...
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 15:59:52 GMT, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:


"ruediger" wrote in message
. com...
Since 3 month I am proud owner of a H201B with 17m wingspan and
"Speizklappen". The glider I owned for 4 years, before i bought the
Libelle was a Astir CS77. I like the handling of the Libelle very
much, the only point I really have problems with, is that the Libelle
loves to drop a wing at the beginning of aero tow. Every take off that
a friend or me made with the glider was close to a aborted take-off.
Other Libelle Pilots said, I should try to open the air breaks for the
first 100m, but none of them owns a 17m version, which has extra
weight on the outer side of the wing because of the wingtip extension.

I am not used to this wing dropping by the ASTIR so I hope I can get
some additionell advice here.

It's an accepted fact that extending the spoilers or selecting negative
flap
will enhance aileron control at low speeds. The magnitude of the effect
differs for various gliders so consultation with pilots experienced with
a
particular glider is advised.

That said, there is another factor that may be involved.

I recall watching the grid depart at a regional contest where each glider
in
turn dropped the upwind wing. There was about a 8 knot crosswind
component.

After watching the show for a while I started to realize that the tugs
prop
blast was drifting with the wind and striking the gliders down wind wing
causing it to rise violently. The onset of the effect occurred when the
glider had rolled about half the length of the tow rope or just after the
wing runner had released the wing tip.

When my turn came, I got ready to stuff in a lot of down wind aileron at
just the point where the glider encountered the tugs prop blast. It
worked
nicely and I didn't drop a wing like those before me. Now I'm always
ready
for the drifting prop blast.

Bill Daniels

In the commercial operation I used to run I saw this same wing drop
due to prop blast in the longer winged planes, specifically the Nimbus
2 and a ASW-22. I kept a 300 ft rope just for towing these guys. The
longer rope solved the problem.

You may wish to make up a 100 foot "weak link" to be used when towed,
(Assuming they are starting with a 200ft.) It would most likely
solve your problem.

I fly a Nimbus 2C and just being alert to the possibility of prop blast
drift has worked for me so far. I like the idea of a longer rope though.

Bill Daniels

I wonder if you have the same problem I had with my H301 35 years ago. Its
main wheel was not directly under the center line, so when the wing runner
leveled the wing and then let go of it, one wing would immediatley drop to
the ground. When this first happened, I thought one wing was heavier than
the other; but this was not the case. A closer examination revealed an
offset main wheel. The quick solution to this problem was to tell the wing
runner to find the balance point instead of holding the wings level. If
your main wheel is directly under the centerline, and the wings don't
balance when held level, one wing is heavier than the other; this can
happen if a repair was done to one of the wings.

"ruediger" wrote in message
om...
Since 3 month I am proud owner of a H201B with 17m wingspan and
"Speizklappen". The glider I owned for 4 years, before i bought the
Libelle was a Astir CS77. I like the handling of the Libelle very
much, the only point I really have problems with, is that the Libelle
loves to drop a wing at the beginning of aero tow. Every take off that
a friend or me made with the glider was close to a aborted take-off.
Other Libelle Pilots said, I should try to open the air breaks for the
first 100m, but none of them owns a 17m version, which has extra
weight on the outer side of the wing because of the wingtip extension.

I am not used to this wing dropping by the ASTIR so I hope I can get
some additionell advice here.

(ruediger) wrote in message . com...
Since 3 month I am proud owner of a H201B with 17m wingspan and
"Speizklappen". The glider I owned for 4 years, before i bought the
Libelle was a Astir CS77. I like the handling of the Libelle very
much, the only point I really have problems with, is that the Libelle
loves to drop a wing at the beginning of aero tow. Every take off that
a friend or me made with the glider was close to a aborted take-off.
Other Libelle Pilots said, I should try to open the air breaks for the
first 100m, but none of them owns a 17m version, which has extra
weight on the outer side of the wing because of the wingtip extension.

I am not used to this wing dropping by the ASTIR so I hope I can get
some additionell advice here.

Did you try using the airbrakes?

Andy

Your friends are correct, you should open the airbrakes. You only need
them until you have passed the point where the tow plane started its
takeoff roll.

You have probably noted that you are consistently dropping the same
wing. It is a result of turbulence from the tow plane. Mark where the
tow plane began its takeoff roll and anticipate the turbulence as you
approach this point. Also, get the tail off the ground as soon as
possible to lower your angle of attack and enliven your ailerons.

Be sure to add a checklist item to your take off... to visually check
that the spoilers are not deployed after you break ground. You may
also want to keep a finger or two on the aft side of the spoiler
handle until you've gotten used to closing the spoilers and locking
them with each take off.

Hope this helps.

Chris OC

Not a bad idea to check that your ship is tracking
straight, I test flew a 20 that would head for the
corn field on every flight. Walking it back from my
second aborted takeoff, I noticed it wouldn't keep
going where I pointed it. Did some checking and found
the factory installed tail wheel was a good 10 degrees
off center line. Tail skids are often reinstalled incorrectly,
also.
JJ


At 22:48 15 October 2004, Bob Salvo wrote:
I wonder if you have the same problem I had with my
H301 35 years ago. Its
main wheel was not directly under the center line,
so when the wing runner
leveled the wing and then let go of it, one wing would
immediatley drop to
the ground. When this first happened, I thought one
wing was heavier than
the other; but this was not the case. A closer examination
revealed an
offset main wheel. The quick solution to this problem
was to tell the wing
runner to find the balance point instead of holding
the wings level. If
your main wheel is directly under the centerline, and
the wings don't
balance when held level, one wing is heavier than the
other; this can
happen if a repair was done to one of the wings.

'ruediger' wrote in message
. com...
Since 3 month I am proud owner of a H201B with 17m
wingspan and
'Speizklappen'. The glider I owned for 4 years, before
i bought the
Libelle was a Astir CS77. I like the handling of the
Libelle very
much, the only point I really have problems with,
is that the Libelle
loves to drop a wing at the beginning of aero tow.
Every take off that
a friend or me made with the glider was close to a
aborted take-off.
Other Libelle Pilots said, I should try to open the
air breaks for the
first 100m, but none of them owns a 17m version, which
has extra
weight on the outer side of the wing because of the
wingtip extension.

I am not used to this wing dropping by the ASTIR so
I hope I can get
some additionell advice here.

201 does not have flaps

The 301 does I used to go from negative in the ground roll once I had
positive control I went to positive and the glider would lift off the ground
did not drop wing.

I have noted a growing trend to open airbrakes (spoilers) in Australia to
prevent dropping wings.

The 201 I launched today dropped the wing he did not use airbrake and I gave
the wing a good run.

Mal

It's an accepted fact that extending the spoilers or selecting negative
flap
will enhance aileron control at low speeds. The magnitude of the effect
differs for various gliders so consultation with pilots experienced with a
particular glider is advised.