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Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada



 
 
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  #31  
Old September 3rd 20, 08:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 2:32:50 PM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 12:11:57 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, September 2, 2020 at 8:48:37 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Not to hijack the thread, but I was seriously disappointed in the quality of radio communication when I left hang gliders for sailplanes. With 2M amateur band radios and the repeater system in use worldwide, like MANY savvy and dedicated hang glider pilots, I enjoyed crystal clear comms with fellow pilots and hundreds of discrete simplex and duplex frequencies. I often "dialed up" the freqs used in Telluride while flying in New Mexico just to talk to my buddies who were in the air in Colorado.

Once I got into sailplanes, I was forced to accept the low quality RX/TX, minimal frequency choices and lack of a repeater network. I almost felt like smoke signals would be about as good.

So I carry a tiny 2M radio just in case. (Along with cell phone, InReach, spare battery, etc.)


Besides the lack of repeaters for aviation frequencies, the low quality reception is due to the use of AM, while other VHF users, including ham radio, use FM. The reason for sticking with AM, beside the historical inertia since the 1940's, is that reflections of the radio waves off a rotating propeller would add a frequency wobble (due to Doppler effect) that would cause audible noise in an FM receiver. Or so I'm told. Anybody tried ham radio - or broadcast FM - reception in a powered plane?

I wonder why they don't make aviation radios that you can switch between AM (talking to ATC) and FM (while talking with compatible buddies in gliders)? The same bandwidth around the same frequency should be legal?


On Maritime Patrol aircraft we had VHF-AM (ATC) and VHF-FM (Maritime radio) among others (UHF/HF/Satcom). P3's have 4 very large propellers. There was no frequency wobble or audible noise on VHF-FM. I think you might have been led astray.


So it's just historical inertia, over about 70 years? Wow. They didn't hesitate to make our old ELTs and transponders obsolete. Nor the older comm radios (with 100 KHz spacing, 50 KHz spacing, and now in Europe even the models with 25 KHz spacing). On each forced change in radios, the switch to FM could have been made? With some issues during the transition period, of course.
  #32  
Old September 3rd 20, 09:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

Almost nothing has been written on the web about communications with Kiwi prior to his disappearance - as if there may have been little to none. The other pilots apparently did not know that something had happened to him at that moment. 100+ mile communications are easy in true line-of-sight such as between aircraft, be it using FRS, GMRS, CB, Ham, or aviation COM. The conditions apparently allowed plenty of altitude for this.
I am surprised maybe because sailplanes here in Southern Arizona regularly report their location, including altitude, observations of conditions, and what they plan next or that their flight is in jeopardy (low and not finding lift). This is true even when not team flying, which involves even more chatter.
I think the choice of Amplitude Modulation for aviation COM was/is profoundly unfortunate. I can't think of a worse option. People have died because of miscommunication due to the characteristics of AM. UAT and GPS may be the only radio technologies available to civilian aviators that are anywhere near the current state of the art and they operate near optimal theoretical capability. All of the other systems appear to have been chosen by other than experts in physics, communications, and information theory.

WTWisniewski (HZ)
  #33  
Old September 3rd 20, 09:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
AS
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Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

So it's just historical inertia, over about 70 years? Wow. They didn't hesitate to make our old ELTs and transponders obsolete. Nor the older comm radios (with 100 KHz spacing, 50 KHz spacing, and now in Europe even the models with 25 KHz spacing). On each forced change in radios, the switch to FM could have been made? With some issues during the transition period, of course.

Europe is down to 8.33kHz channel spacing now. That's what caused them to sell all these great used 25kHz radios.

Uli
'AS'
  #34  
Old September 3rd 20, 10:18 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 4:38:23 PM UTC-4, AS wrote:
So it's just historical inertia, over about 70 years? Wow. They didn't hesitate to make our old ELTs and transponders obsolete. Nor the older comm radios (with 100 KHz spacing, 50 KHz spacing, and now in Europe even the models with 25 KHz spacing). On each forced change in radios, the switch to FM could have been made? With some issues during the transition period, of course.


Europe is down to 8.33kHz channel spacing now. That's what caused them to sell all these great used 25kHz radios.

Uli
'AS'


That's what I was saying. While forcing everybody to buy new radios, why didn't they switch to FM, or perhaps even modern digital modulation/encoding systems? The latter can include error correction and redundant data so as to smooth over dropouts.

In the USA they forced everybody to discard their analog TVs a decade ago. (Some people did use the conversion boxes, for a while.)
  #35  
Old September 4th 20, 12:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 1:08:47 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Almost nothing has been written on the web about communications with Kiwi prior to his disappearance - as if there may have been little to none. The other pilots apparently did not know that something had happened to him at that moment. 100+ mile communications are easy in true line-of-sight such as between aircraft, be it using FRS, GMRS, CB, Ham, or aviation COM. The conditions apparently allowed plenty of altitude for this.
I am surprised maybe because sailplanes here in Southern Arizona regularly report their location, including altitude, observations of conditions, and what they plan next or that their flight is in jeopardy (low and not finding lift). This is true even when not team flying, which involves even more chatter.
I think the choice of Amplitude Modulation for aviation COM was/is profoundly unfortunate. I can't think of a worse option. People have died because of miscommunication due to the characteristics of AM. UAT and GPS may be the only radio technologies available to civilian aviators that are anywhere near the current state of the art and they operate near optimal theoretical capability. All of the other systems appear to have been chosen by other than experts in physics, communications, and information theory.

WTWisniewski (HZ)


We do not get to chose which modulation method our radios use - that is dictated to us by the bureaucracy. My point in bringing it up is that these paraglider pilots had to means of communicating with other aircraft, which is potentially deadly in a SAR situation. I do know other glider pilots who do carry 2M ham radios, but not to the exclusion of VHF radios.

Tom
  #36  
Old September 4th 20, 12:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

The main reason for "historical inertia" is that, when aircraft radios were first adopted, AM was just about all the current technology would support, and the International Aviation and Communication regulating bodies had to decide on a "common" frequency spectrum and technical standard. Since then, even thought FM has proven itself far superior, it would not be feasible to change over today. ALL aircraft radios and ground communication equipment would have to be changed SIMULTANEOUSLY worldwide. Additionally, the frequency spectrum is completely filled up and probably cannot support a new range exclusively for aviation use. Many countries use differing frequency allotments for some uses. For example, business band radios in the US (~151 Mhz) are not legal in Australia, as that frequency range is allotted for other licensed users.

  #37  
Old September 4th 20, 01:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 6:50:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
ALL aircraft radios and ground communication equipment would have to be changed SIMULTANEOUSLY worldwide.


Perhaps there was a lost opportunity to make the new channels in the 8.3khz radios FM?

I've heard old stories that the reason aside from history was that in the event of a double, with AM you hear both. But with FM the stronger signal may capture the receiver and you would not know that the second guy was there.

HAM's definitely are better at communicationg than the aircraft folks.
  #38  
Old September 4th 20, 01:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 5:10:12 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 6:50:01 PM UTC-5, wrote:
ALL aircraft radios and ground communication equipment would have to be changed SIMULTANEOUSLY worldwide.


Perhaps there was a lost opportunity to make the new channels in the 8.3khz radios FM?

I've heard old stories that the reason aside from history was that in the event of a double, with AM you hear both. But with FM the stronger signal may capture the receiver and you would not know that the second guy was there.

HAM's definitely are better at communicationg than the aircraft folks.


Another issue with 2M Ham radios is that you need, at a minimum, an FCC amateur technician license to transmit legally.
https://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/Rad...Gliding_Pilots
https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-...-radio-service

Tom
  #39  
Old September 4th 20, 04:33 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada


HAM's definitely are better at communicationg than the aircraft folks.

Another issue with 2M Ham radios is that you need, at a minimum, an FCC amateur technician license to transmit legally.
https://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/Rad...Gliding_Pilots
https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-...-radio-service

Tom


It's not a difficult test. I'm an extra class and if you ask Wes I'm not nearly as smart as he is.
  #40  
Old September 4th 20, 05:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Paraglider pilot missing in eastern Nevada

On Thursday, September 3, 2020 at 8:33:30 PM UTC-7, wrote:
HAM's definitely are better at communicationg than the aircraft folks.

Another issue with 2M Ham radios is that you need, at a minimum, an FCC amateur technician license to transmit legally.
https://www.hanggliding.org/wiki/Rad...Gliding_Pilots
https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-...-radio-service

Tom


It's not a difficult test. I'm an extra class and if you ask Wes I'm not nearly as smart as he is.


But, it IS a test, which means studying for it - and try finding someplace where you can take the test right now.

Tom
 




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