Fatal accident in Scotland

Dan G wrote:

Vaughn and John, that's why you do pre-flight checks.

Of course. But then, pilots do mistakes. Otherwise there would be no
accidents. So the point is to behave in a manner that you have options
even when you made a mistake or even two.

Of course I would grab the release knob if it were buried somewhere
between my legs. But I don't if it's easily reachable. I do touch it
once before takeoff though, as part of my departure briefing.

On 5 Sep, 10:37, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Sep 5, 8:03 am, Ian wrote:

On 5 Sep, 01:31, Dan G wrote:

You do not attach a cable to the glider until it is ready to fly. All
checks complete, nothing left to do.

Yes, precisely. I don't see any problems with that. I'll go further
and
state that I would need to be convinced that anything else was safer.

Agreed - as long as the ground crew (signaller, driver, anyone else
involved at the site in question) are also ready to go.

Which is fine in an ideal world. But it doesn't always work like that.
Sometimes there are delays, and a safe system will take account of
that possibility.

Er, what's the problem with releasing the cable if there's a delay?
In what way isn't that a "safe system"?

How long a delay? Ten seconds? Twenty? A minute? What if the ground is
muddy and the pilot doesn;t want to make someone grovel in the mud
again to reattach? What if an impatient instructor (I have seen this)
is saying "Don't drop the cable, this won't take long".

Yes, in an ideal world we could hook up and go. I just think the final
word on whether to start the launch should rest with the pilot in
charge ... and in a world where occasional delays between hook-up and
launch are inevitable, that means the pilot should initiate the launch
after the hook-up.

My reasons for liking the "Up slack" and "All out" signals from the
pilot are because too many signallers are rotten at deciding when to
do the transition (although most are fine). I have in the past pulled
off because the signaller was giving "All out" too soon, and I'll do
it again if I have to ...

It's when people start thinking that the rules will keep them safe
that accidents happen.

True, but of course that has only tangential relevance to whether
or not the rules are good.

I don't agree. No rules which are followed mindlessly are good.

Ian

On 5 Sep, 09:41, Rory O'Conor
wrote:

I do take my hand off the release towards the end of
the ground run.

Why.

Please could you expand as to what nasty accident might
result due to me having my hand ON the release at the
beginning of the ground run.

Glider hits a bump in a field. You pull the release.

Ian

On Sep 5, 2:40 pm, Ian wrote:
On 5 Sep, 10:37, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Sep 5, 8:03 am, Ian wrote:
On 5 Sep, 01:31, Dan G wrote:
You do not attach a cable to the glider until it is ready to fly. All
checks complete, nothing left to do.

Yes, precisely. I don't see any problems with that. I'll go further
and
state that I would need to be convinced that anything else was safer.

Agreed - as long as the ground crew (signaller, driver, anyone else
involved at the site in question) are also ready to go.

If anyone isn't ready to go, then the launch doesn't start.
If anyone thinks there's a problem, they can stop the launch.
I don't see any difficulty in that, and I can't conceive of
anything else being appropriate.


Which is fine in an ideal world. But it doesn't always work like that.
Sometimes there are delays, and a safe system will take account of
that possibility.
Er, what's the problem with releasing the cable if there's a delay?
In what way isn't that a "safe system"?

How long a delay? Ten seconds? Twenty? A minute?

Reasonable question. I would have thought that there was
no single correct answer and doesn't need to be;
judgement is required from everybody.

My only rule of thumb is that if people's attention might
wander away from thinking about the launch and/or
"eventualities", then drop the cable. Thus a minute is
probably usually OK, whereas 5 minutes isn't.

Other opinions welcome, of course.

What if the ground is muddy and the pilot doesn't
want to make someone grovel in the mud
again to reattach?

The pilot is a twit if they let that sway a safety decision.

What if an impatient instructor (I have seen this)
is saying "Don't drop the cable, this won't take long".

It depends on what "this" is, and I'd apply my "attention
test", as above.

Yes, in an ideal world we could hook up and go. I just think the final
word on whether to start the launch should rest with the pilot in
charge ...

Nope, it rests with everybody involved in the launch, in that all
must be happy before proceeding. In particular, the pilot can't
adequately see "all clear above and behind", nor the cow that
has just wandered onto the strip, just over that little hump
halfway down the strip

and in a world where occasional delays between hook-up and
launch are inevitable, that means the pilot should initiate the launch
after the hook-up.

See above.

My reasons for liking the "Up slack" and "All out" signals from the
pilot are because too many signallers are rotten at deciding when to
do the transition (although most are fine). I have in the past pulled
off because the signaller was giving "All out" too soon, and I'll do
it again if I have to ...

I've never seen that, but if I did then I'd follow your action
(hopefully
without hesitation


It's when people start thinking that the rules will keep them safe
that accidents happen.
True, but of course that has only tangential relevance to whether
or not the rules are good.

I don't agree. No rules which are followed mindlessly are good.

The rule can be good even if it is mindlessly followed. Most
of the time I mindlessly follow the rule to drive on the left side
of the road

But both of us think the reason for the rule should be understood
before it is mindlessly followed!

On Sep 5, 2:43 pm, Ian wrote:
On 5 Sep, 09:41, Rory O'Conor

wrote:
I do take my hand off the release towards the end of
the ground run.

Why.

Please could you expand as to what nasty accident might
result due to me having my hand ON the release at the
beginning of the ground run.

Glider hits a bump in a field. You pull the release.

Embarrassing, possibly, but that wouldn't worry me.
I'd appreciate examples of *nasty* consequences.

On Sep 5, 10:05 am, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Sep 5, 2:43 pm, Ian wrote:

On 5 Sep, 09:41, Rory O'Conor

wrote:
I do take my hand off the release towards the end of
the ground run.

Why.

Please could you expand as to what nasty accident might
result due to me having my hand ON the release at the
beginning of the ground run.

Glider hits a bump in a field. You pull the release.

Embarrassing, possibly, but that wouldn't worry me.
I'd appreciate examples of *nasty* consequences.

The only nasty consequences I can think of happen if you pull the
release at 0-300 feet altitude. There is one less Discus (pilot was
OK) in the world because of this just recently. So start the ground
run with the hand on release, but remove it at liftoff.

Todd

On Sep 5, 10:02 am, Tom Gardner wrote:
....
The rule can be good even if it is mindlessly followed. Most
of the time I mindlessly follow the rule to drive on the left side
of the road

Hopefully, you convert mindfully when you are driving somewhere that
uses the right hand side of the road :-)

Todd
3S

On Sep 5, 3:41 pm, toad wrote:
On Sep 5, 10:05 am, Tom Gardner wrote:

On Sep 5, 2:43 pm, Ian wrote:

On 5 Sep, 09:41, Rory O'Conor

wrote:
I do take my hand off the release towards the end of
the ground run.

Why.

Please could you expand as to what nasty accident might
result due to me having my hand ON the release at the
beginning of the ground run.

Glider hits a bump in a field. You pull the release.

Embarrassing, possibly, but that wouldn't worry me.
I'd appreciate examples of *nasty* consequences.

The only nasty consequences I can think of happen if you pull the
release at 0-300 feet altitude.

300'? Bloody big bump

There is one less Discus (pilot was
OK) in the world because of this just recently. So start the ground
run with the hand on release, but remove it at liftoff.

I'm perfectly happy to believe that is correct, but I wonder
whether this is akin to the arguments about why seatbelts
can be dangerous in some circumstances. Balance of
probabilities and all that.

But considering dubious analogies with seatbelts is probably
a mistake!

On Sep 5, 3:44 pm, toad wrote:
On Sep 5, 10:02 am, Tom Gardner wrote:
...

The rule can be good even if it is mindlessly followed. Most
of the time I mindlessly follow the rule to drive on the left side
of the road

Hopefully, you convert mindfully when you are driving somewhere that
uses the right hand side of the road :-)

No problems, except when in carparks, petrol stations, and
when emerging from them onto the road. It also helps if the
steering wheel is on the appropriate side of the car.

OTOH, "right" and "left" have to be replaced by "your way" and
"my way" since there is a demanding feeling that "turn right"
means "turn across oncoming traffic". Surprisingly, I'm not the
only person with those neurons in a twist!

Someone posted these scanned S&G PDF files to the winchdesign group
today. I'd seen one before and had been looking for one of the
others. They may be posted elsewhere and familiar to some
contributing to this thread. So I've made them more widely available.

As some who had a ground loop many years again on a winch launch
(tall, damp grass 12" and inexperienced wing runner that didn't run,
but dropped the wing on all out), I'm with the hand on release. Wing
down, get off.

http://www.coloradosoaring.org/winch_safety.htm

Frank Whiteley