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Fatal accident in Scotland



 
 
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  #41  
Old September 5th 07, 04:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ian
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Posts: 306
Default Winch launch procedure and accidents

On 5 Sep, 15:02, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Sep 5, 2:40 pm, Ian wrote:


Agreed - as long as the ground crew (signaller, driver, anyone else
involved at the site in question) are also ready to go.


If anyone isn't ready to go, then the launch doesn't start.


Indeed. Which gibves the pilot fiddling time ...

How long a delay? Ten seconds? Twenty? A minute?


Reasonable question. I would have thought that there was
no single correct answer and doesn't need to be;
judgement is required from everybody.


Then you and up with a non-launching glider on a cable, the pilot
getting distracted, the signaller seeing an opportunity for a quick
launch and ... bang.

Actually, I agree with you. I just think that the pilot should
retain / have retained control.

What if the ground is muddy and the pilot doesn't
want to make someone grovel in the mud
again to reattach?


The pilot is a twit if they let that sway a safety decision.


Might it not alter the judgment (see above) about how long to delay
pulling the bung?

Yes, in an ideal world we could hook up and go. I just think the final
word on whether to start the launch should rest with the pilot in
charge ...


Nope, it rests with everybody involved in the launch, in that all
must be happy before proceeding.


Lots of people have input - your point about the check behind is very
good - but only one person can ever have a final word about anything.

I don't agree. No rules which are followed mindlessly are good.


The rule can be good even if it is mindlessly followed. Most
of the time I mindlessly follow the rule to drive on the left side
of the road


Even if you meet approaching walkers ...?

Ian

  #42  
Old September 5th 07, 04:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ian
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Posts: 306
Default Winch launch procedure and accidents

On 5 Sep, 16:19, Frank Whiteley wrote:

As some who had a ground loop many years again on a winch launch
(tall, damp grass 12" and inexperienced wing runner that didn't run,
but dropped the wing on all out), I'm with the hand on release. Wing
down, get off.


One of my bugbears is wing runners who hold the wings level.

Sounds like their job, doesn't it? But if they have to apply force to
hold the wings level - because the stick is to one side, say, or in a
cross wind - then as soon as they let go the glider will fall down
and, if the pilot is unlucky, touch a tip. Wing runners, if the wing
is pulling down, let it go down - a bit. The pilot can then do
something useful with the stick (probably by reflex) to get it level.

Pilots can be stupid about this too. "There is a cross wind from the
right" they think "so I will need to keep the right wing down to avoid
drift, so I will start with some right aileron" Yes, I know it's not
logical, but they do it, and the result is generally a huge lurch as
soon as the tip runner lets go.

Ian

  #43  
Old September 5th 07, 05:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Rory O'Conor[_2_]
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Posts: 11
Default Winch launch procedure and accidents



I do take my hand off the release towards the end of the ground run.Why=

  #44  
Old September 5th 07, 05:30 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jim Vincent
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Posts: 92
Default Winch launch procedure and accidents

The issue might not be violence, per se, but more the quick acceleration of
the launch compresses the seat pillow, moving the pilot back. Unless you're
on the ball, this can lead to unintended pull back on the stick. If your
hand is on the release, you might release by mistake. I prefer to keep my
knuckles on the release so I can easily reach it.

"Vaughn Simon" wrote in message
news

"Dan G" wrote in message
ups.com...
You
have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will
not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it.


I am trying to think back, but with most (if not all) gliders I have
flown this would not be practical because of the dash-mounted position of
the release knob. I was taught that my left hand went behind (not on) the
spoiler handle to guard it closed. Here it can prevent another type of
launch accident and still be very close to the release knob.

There is no way any launch could be violent enough that you'd pull the
release
accidently.


I have had some pretty violent launches. Things get bumpy when you
are rolling over grass on a single wheel at near-takeoff speeds.

Vaughn



  #45  
Old September 5th 07, 05:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jim Vincent
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Posts: 92
Default Winch launch procedure and accidents

In a crosswind, consider having the wing runner hold the upwind wing down so
the glider feels balanced. That angle should be very close to what the
pilot needs to control the drift. Then, there is no need to initiate a
aileron input since the wing is already at the angle needed to compensate
for drift.

"Ian" wrote in message
oups.com...
On 5 Sep, 16:19, Frank Whiteley wrote:

As some who had a ground loop many years again on a winch launch
(tall, damp grass 12" and inexperienced wing runner that didn't run,
but dropped the wing on all out), I'm with the hand on release. Wing
down, get off.


One of my bugbears is wing runners who hold the wings level.

Sounds like their job, doesn't it? But if they have to apply force to
hold the wings level - because the stick is to one side, say, or in a
cross wind - then as soon as they let go the glider will fall down
and, if the pilot is unlucky, touch a tip. Wing runners, if the wing
is pulling down, let it go down - a bit. The pilot can then do
something useful with the stick (probably by reflex) to get it level.

Pilots can be stupid about this too. "There is a cross wind from the
right" they think "so I will need to keep the right wing down to avoid
drift, so I will start with some right aileron" Yes, I know it's not
logical, but they do it, and the result is generally a huge lurch as
soon as the tip runner lets go.

Ian



  #46  
Old September 5th 07, 05:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Neil
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Posts: 7
Default Winch launch procedure and accidents


"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message
...
John Smith wrote:

You've obviously never been winch launched in a Junior.

When I fly a Junior I have my elbow on the canopy rail to support my arm
and my straight fingers resting on top of the release "T" knob. This way
curling my fingers and a slight pull gives an instant release but jolts
(we have a grass field) can't cause an unintended release. For those
unfamiliar with the Junior, the release knob is right at the top of the
panel immediately under the cowl and projects straight back on a stiff
cable that prevents it flopping down.


I fly a Junior at my club (amongst other things), and do exactly the same
with it.

Neil


  #47  
Old September 5th 07, 06:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_1_]
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Posts: 276
Default Winch launch procedure and accidents

Ian wrote:
Wing runners, if the wing
is pulling down, let it go down - a bit. The pilot can then do
something useful with the stick (probably by reflex) to get it level.

Good advice. I must remember that.

Pilots can be stupid about this too. "There is a cross wind from the
right" they think "so I will need to keep the right wing down to avoid
drift, so I will start with some right aileron" Yes, I know it's not
logical, but they do it, and the result is generally a huge lurch as
soon as the tip runner lets go.

Yes, I've been there. Now I generally start a winch launch with all
controls neutral and the knowledge that I can correct fast enough to
keep straight and the wings level. The only exceptions a

- I will start with some left rudder on a Junior if there's a strong
cross wind from the right - thanks to its left offset hook a Junior
will swing right under these conditions if given half a chance.

- I start a Std. Libelle winch launch on full forward trim and an
additional forward pressure - otherwise it WILL rotate too fast.
Once it starts to auto-rotate full down only just controls it, but
starting as I described gives a smooth lift-off and a nice
rotation when you want it.

I haven't yet dropped a wing on a winch launch, but my hand IS on the
release from "cable on" all the way to the top.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
  #48  
Old September 5th 07, 07:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
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Posts: 2,099
Default Winch launch procedure and accidents

On Sep 5, 9:40 am, Ian wrote:
On 5 Sep, 16:19, Frank Whiteley wrote:

As some who had a ground loop many years again on a winch launch
(tall, damp grass 12" and inexperienced wing runner that didn't run,
but dropped the wing on all out), I'm with the hand on release. Wing
down, get off.


One of my bugbears is wing runners who hold the wings level.

Sounds like their job, doesn't it? But if they have to apply force to
hold the wings level - because the stick is to one side, say, or in a
cross wind - then as soon as they let go the glider will fall down
and, if the pilot is unlucky, touch a tip. Wing runners, if the wing
is pulling down, let it go down - a bit. The pilot can then do
something useful with the stick (probably by reflex) to get it level.

Pilots can be stupid about this too. "There is a cross wind from the
right" they think "so I will need to keep the right wing down to avoid
drift, so I will start with some right aileron" Yes, I know it's not
logical, but they do it, and the result is generally a huge lurch as
soon as the tip runner lets go.

Ian


I agree about this and will let the wing down or up until the pilot
wakes up. In my case, there was no wind, just that the wing holder
had no clue and let it go as all out was given.

The RAF base commander, over protests, wasn't mowing the grass to let
the orchids bloom. The grass was cut for the next weekend after CFI
Mick B met with him.

In retrospect, perhaps we shouldn't have operated with the grass that
tall, though the wings of the K-4 and L-13 were much higher than mine.

Frank

  #49  
Old September 6th 07, 12:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony Verhulst
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Posts: 193
Default Winch launch procedure and accidents


You
have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will
not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it.


That's my opinion, too.



That *used* to be my opinion. What changed it was hitting a severe bump
and watching the end of the rope continue without me. Now, I keep my
left hand *very* close to the release handle. No groping needed at all
should you need to release.

Tony V.
  #50  
Old September 6th 07, 12:52 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan G
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Posts: 245
Default Winch launch procedure and accidents

Must say that once the cable is attached to my glider, I'm acutely
aware that the other end is connected to a 300 hp V8 engine. I don't
let go of the release for any reason, nor do I stop scanning sky and
ground for potential conflicts. This continues until either the launch
starts or someone shouts "release". If something spooks me, I drop the
cable myself.

At our club, the guy on the lights/radio is usually an instructor and
if not, a cool-headed, experienced individual. We also make sure the
wing runners know about the "running" part. In at least two of the
aerotow ground loops I saw in August (none of which occured at my home
club) the primary cause was the wing runner, well, not running. In
fact one guy was wearing flip flops which of course fell off, and he
stopped.


Dan

 




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