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#41
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
On 5 Sep, 15:02, Tom Gardner wrote:
On Sep 5, 2:40 pm, Ian wrote: Agreed - as long as the ground crew (signaller, driver, anyone else involved at the site in question) are also ready to go. If anyone isn't ready to go, then the launch doesn't start. Indeed. Which gibves the pilot fiddling time ... How long a delay? Ten seconds? Twenty? A minute? Reasonable question. I would have thought that there was no single correct answer and doesn't need to be; judgement is required from everybody. Then you and up with a non-launching glider on a cable, the pilot getting distracted, the signaller seeing an opportunity for a quick launch and ... bang. Actually, I agree with you. I just think that the pilot should retain / have retained control. What if the ground is muddy and the pilot doesn't want to make someone grovel in the mud again to reattach? The pilot is a twit if they let that sway a safety decision. Might it not alter the judgment (see above) about how long to delay pulling the bung? Yes, in an ideal world we could hook up and go. I just think the final word on whether to start the launch should rest with the pilot in charge ... Nope, it rests with everybody involved in the launch, in that all must be happy before proceeding. Lots of people have input - your point about the check behind is very good - but only one person can ever have a final word about anything. I don't agree. No rules which are followed mindlessly are good. The rule can be good even if it is mindlessly followed. Most of the time I mindlessly follow the rule to drive on the left side of the road Even if you meet approaching walkers ...? Ian |
#42
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
On 5 Sep, 16:19, Frank Whiteley wrote:
As some who had a ground loop many years again on a winch launch (tall, damp grass 12" and inexperienced wing runner that didn't run, but dropped the wing on all out), I'm with the hand on release. Wing down, get off. One of my bugbears is wing runners who hold the wings level. Sounds like their job, doesn't it? But if they have to apply force to hold the wings level - because the stick is to one side, say, or in a cross wind - then as soon as they let go the glider will fall down and, if the pilot is unlucky, touch a tip. Wing runners, if the wing is pulling down, let it go down - a bit. The pilot can then do something useful with the stick (probably by reflex) to get it level. Pilots can be stupid about this too. "There is a cross wind from the right" they think "so I will need to keep the right wing down to avoid drift, so I will start with some right aileron" Yes, I know it's not logical, but they do it, and the result is generally a huge lurch as soon as the tip runner lets go. Ian |
#43
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
I do take my hand off the release towards the end of the ground run.Why= |
#44
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
The issue might not be violence, per se, but more the quick acceleration of
the launch compresses the seat pillow, moving the pilot back. Unless you're on the ball, this can lead to unintended pull back on the stick. If your hand is on the release, you might release by mistake. I prefer to keep my knuckles on the release so I can easily reach it. "Vaughn Simon" wrote in message news "Dan G" wrote in message ups.com... You have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it. I am trying to think back, but with most (if not all) gliders I have flown this would not be practical because of the dash-mounted position of the release knob. I was taught that my left hand went behind (not on) the spoiler handle to guard it closed. Here it can prevent another type of launch accident and still be very close to the release knob. There is no way any launch could be violent enough that you'd pull the release accidently. I have had some pretty violent launches. Things get bumpy when you are rolling over grass on a single wheel at near-takeoff speeds. Vaughn |
#45
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
In a crosswind, consider having the wing runner hold the upwind wing down so
the glider feels balanced. That angle should be very close to what the pilot needs to control the drift. Then, there is no need to initiate a aileron input since the wing is already at the angle needed to compensate for drift. "Ian" wrote in message oups.com... On 5 Sep, 16:19, Frank Whiteley wrote: As some who had a ground loop many years again on a winch launch (tall, damp grass 12" and inexperienced wing runner that didn't run, but dropped the wing on all out), I'm with the hand on release. Wing down, get off. One of my bugbears is wing runners who hold the wings level. Sounds like their job, doesn't it? But if they have to apply force to hold the wings level - because the stick is to one side, say, or in a cross wind - then as soon as they let go the glider will fall down and, if the pilot is unlucky, touch a tip. Wing runners, if the wing is pulling down, let it go down - a bit. The pilot can then do something useful with the stick (probably by reflex) to get it level. Pilots can be stupid about this too. "There is a cross wind from the right" they think "so I will need to keep the right wing down to avoid drift, so I will start with some right aileron" Yes, I know it's not logical, but they do it, and the result is generally a huge lurch as soon as the tip runner lets go. Ian |
#46
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message ... John Smith wrote: You've obviously never been winch launched in a Junior. When I fly a Junior I have my elbow on the canopy rail to support my arm and my straight fingers resting on top of the release "T" knob. This way curling my fingers and a slight pull gives an instant release but jolts (we have a grass field) can't cause an unintended release. For those unfamiliar with the Junior, the release knob is right at the top of the panel immediately under the cowl and projects straight back on a stiff cable that prevents it flopping down. I fly a Junior at my club (amongst other things), and do exactly the same with it. Neil |
#47
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
Ian wrote:
Wing runners, if the wing is pulling down, let it go down - a bit. The pilot can then do something useful with the stick (probably by reflex) to get it level. Good advice. I must remember that. Pilots can be stupid about this too. "There is a cross wind from the right" they think "so I will need to keep the right wing down to avoid drift, so I will start with some right aileron" Yes, I know it's not logical, but they do it, and the result is generally a huge lurch as soon as the tip runner lets go. Yes, I've been there. Now I generally start a winch launch with all controls neutral and the knowledge that I can correct fast enough to keep straight and the wings level. The only exceptions a - I will start with some left rudder on a Junior if there's a strong cross wind from the right - thanks to its left offset hook a Junior will swing right under these conditions if given half a chance. - I start a Std. Libelle winch launch on full forward trim and an additional forward pressure - otherwise it WILL rotate too fast. Once it starts to auto-rotate full down only just controls it, but starting as I described gives a smooth lift-off and a nice rotation when you want it. I haven't yet dropped a wing on a winch launch, but my hand IS on the release from "cable on" all the way to the top. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | |
#48
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
On Sep 5, 9:40 am, Ian wrote:
On 5 Sep, 16:19, Frank Whiteley wrote: As some who had a ground loop many years again on a winch launch (tall, damp grass 12" and inexperienced wing runner that didn't run, but dropped the wing on all out), I'm with the hand on release. Wing down, get off. One of my bugbears is wing runners who hold the wings level. Sounds like their job, doesn't it? But if they have to apply force to hold the wings level - because the stick is to one side, say, or in a cross wind - then as soon as they let go the glider will fall down and, if the pilot is unlucky, touch a tip. Wing runners, if the wing is pulling down, let it go down - a bit. The pilot can then do something useful with the stick (probably by reflex) to get it level. Pilots can be stupid about this too. "There is a cross wind from the right" they think "so I will need to keep the right wing down to avoid drift, so I will start with some right aileron" Yes, I know it's not logical, but they do it, and the result is generally a huge lurch as soon as the tip runner lets go. Ian I agree about this and will let the wing down or up until the pilot wakes up. In my case, there was no wind, just that the wing holder had no clue and let it go as all out was given. The RAF base commander, over protests, wasn't mowing the grass to let the orchids bloom. The grass was cut for the next weekend after CFI Mick B met with him. In retrospect, perhaps we shouldn't have operated with the grass that tall, though the wings of the K-4 and L-13 were much higher than mine. Frank |
#49
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
You have one hand on the stick and the other holds the release. You will not have time to go feeling for the release if you need it. That's my opinion, too. That *used* to be my opinion. What changed it was hitting a severe bump and watching the end of the rope continue without me. Now, I keep my left hand *very* close to the release handle. No groping needed at all should you need to release. Tony V. |
#50
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Winch launch procedure and accidents
Must say that once the cable is attached to my glider, I'm acutely
aware that the other end is connected to a 300 hp V8 engine. I don't let go of the release for any reason, nor do I stop scanning sky and ground for potential conflicts. This continues until either the launch starts or someone shouts "release". If something spooks me, I drop the cable myself. At our club, the guy on the lights/radio is usually an instructor and if not, a cool-headed, experienced individual. We also make sure the wing runners know about the "running" part. In at least two of the aerotow ground loops I saw in August (none of which occured at my home club) the primary cause was the wing runner, well, not running. In fact one guy was wearing flip flops which of course fell off, and he stopped. Dan |
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