Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

Winching seems fine, but auto towing seems less complex to me and far less expensive. Of course clubs are always working to find a way to stamp out as many cycles as possible (quantity). For smaller groups or just a few (or when looking for absolute minimum cost), auto towing seems more elegant (quality)! Rigging up that loud spinning monster seems like overkill in many cases.

I'm going to plan an auto-towing event in Michigan next summer for the fun of it, maybe up in Frankfort so we can go ridge soaring on the dunes.

Book: https://books.google.com/books?id=K4...oaring&f=false

More later...

Sean
7T

On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 12:39:40 PM UTC-5, Sean Fidler wrote:
Winching seems fine, but auto towing seems less complex to me and far less expensive. Of course clubs are always working to find a way to stamp out as many cycles as possible (quantity). For smaller groups or just a few (or when looking for absolute minimum cost), auto towing seems more elegant (quality)! Rigging up that loud spinning monster seems like overkill in many cases.

I'm going to plan an auto-towing event in Michigan next summer for the fun of it, maybe up in Frankfort so we can go ridge soaring on the dunes.

Book: https://books.google.com/books?id=K4...oaring&f=false

More later...

Sean
7T

Have you ever been on a modern 2-drum winch, Sean? With a trained crew and a good winch driver you can launch 2 gliders every 10 min without the hassle of dealing with 3-4000' of cable. Have you considered what auto-launch is like with a good cross-wind? No real problem with a winch because the cable ends up on the reel - all of it. Ignorance is sometimes bliss, you know.
Herb J7

On Wednesday, October 21, 2015 at 8:08:59 AM UTC-6, wrote:


Sean
7T

Have you ever been on a modern 2-drum winch, Sean? With a trained crew and a good winch driver you can launch 2 gliders every 10 min without the hassle of dealing with 3-4000' of cable. Have you considered what auto-launch is like with a good cross-wind? No real problem with a winch because the cable ends up on the reel - all of it. Ignorance is sometimes bliss, you know.
Herb J7

Exactly. Auto tow will indeed be "dropping the rope all over the place" and, when all the costs are added up, it won't be any cheaper than a winch.

One must concede that auto tow LOOKS simpler and cheaper to novices but after a few weekends actually doing it the realization sets in that a winch is a much better idea. That's why there's a 1000:1 ratio between winch and auto tow operations globally. Pretty much everybody who tries auto tow winds up with a winch.

Back in the early 1960's a bunch of us desert rat glider pilots operating from El Mirage dry lake pushed the auto tow idea to its limit and in the process learned all the hard lessons. Operating a modern winch is a picnic by comparison.

When is this annual event and do you accept visiting pilots who bring
their own ships?

On 10/20/2015 11:27 AM, Steve Rander wrote:
I couldn't help but add a comment, I am from the Willamette Valley Soaring Club in Oregon. Once a year we do a Safari to the Alvord Desert which is a dry lake 17 miles long and 7 miles wide, that's right there is no end to the runway so to speak.

We have been doing a weeks worth of auto tows since the 1950's and I can say while I have only been a part of this Safari since 2000 I am hooked on auto towing at this location.

All of the variables that have been mentioned exist such as air density, horse power of the car, car weight, length of wire, etc.

Up until this last year we have always used a length of 12 gauge agricultural wire (about $125.00 for 4,000'), we take a new wire every few years to replace the old one. You can tell when it is time to replace the old because the number of wire breaks. Wire breaks are a real pain as it takes a half hour to get the two ends nicro pressed back together and walk the wire to check for kinks. We have used a number of old cars, the 1960's Buick's were the best as we just left them at a farmers ranch and came out, fueled them up, reinstalled the battery and fired them off.
The last care we used as a 92 Cadillac which only lasted about 5 years before the transmission went.
This year we took both a new wire and a take up reel I built. the reel had 4,000' of spectra and was used much as the wire was in that it was run out full length before the tow was started so the only variables in tow were the car speed and the pilots control. ( I had a few very uneasy flights years ago on a pay out winch where the car speed, winch pay out and pilot were all variable).

On the wire we use a tow release on the car with a release cable run to the spotter. On the spectra cable we have a weak link at the reel and the spotter is in the back of the pickup ready to sever the weak link if required.
With our launch system we get a launch of every 10-15 minutes, the launch itself takes 3 minutes and the release altitude is 2,000-2,500' AGL.

Steve R.

--
Dan, 5J

The Willamette Valley Alvord Safari is normally the 2nd or 3rd week in July.. Steve Rander is the organizer/contact, and we get a special permit (limit on the number on individuals) from the BLM to camp on the playa. Rander has a complete menu for the week and everyone shares the cost. I'm sure Steve will chip in here, but we have had visiting pilots in the past, but the count may be filled by club members before you get the chance.

Mike

Thanks for the information. It would be a really long trek from
Albuquerque, but it would be worth it at least once. Same BLM hoops to
jump through for the Las Vegas ground launch weekend.

On 10/20/2015 8:08 PM, SoaringXCellence wrote:
The Willamette Valley Alvord Safari is normally the 2nd or 3rd week in July. Steve Rander is the organizer/contact, and we get a special permit (limit on the number on individuals) from the BLM to camp on the playa. Rander has a complete menu for the week and everyone shares the cost. I'm sure Steve will chip in here, but we have had visiting pilots in the past, but the count may be filled by club members before you get the chance.

Mike

--
Dan, 5J

I got my silver altitude gain off of an auto tow. As a CFIG I have instructed at two winch clinics using our winch on a public airport. A well set up, high torque winch, with Spectra, the correct tackle, and a winch driver that knows what he is doing is pretty hard to beat. In my opinion a winch launch is the best option between the two given a choice.

I would try several auto tows with different local gliders, and pilots before I attempted to set up an auto tow weekend event. There are a whole lot of things that could go wrong. You don't want a bunch of whiners from out of town bitching about, while you discover what they are. Oh, volunteer your own vehicle for the towing while you are at it, that tends to alter ones opinion of the event.

To answer you questions in order
-wear and tear on the tow vehicle is a significant cost that's hard to account for.
-It's not simple all the time, say the field is a little wet, the glider lightens the back end, and the tires spin. It can get exciting.
-You have to have the right site, launch crew, and vehicle to make auto towing practical.
-it's not more fun than winching on a good winch. Think Ski boat with not enough engine.

SF

On Monday, October 5, 2015 at 5:57:33 AM UTC+1, Sean Fidler wrote:

Winches are extremely expensive to purchase, to maintain, and insure and require skilled operators.


IME winching can be taught over the course of a handful of sessions -- yes, skill levels vary, but it hardly requires a "skilled operator". At most clubs in the UK, the majority of solo pilots can drive the winch effectively and safely.

Auto towing may look simpler because people already know how to drive a car. The simplicity is deceptive though -- it requires a skilled, safety-conscious driver.

Sean
I don't know what you do for a living now. Whatever it is, you need to quit and go to law school. It's the only profession I know that pays exceptionally well for people that love to create arguments out of thin air just for the sheer fun of it. A few years after graduation, a man with your skill set, and natural talent, could afford any launch method he desired.

At the SSA Convention in Greenville this year,
http://ssaconvention.org/


Uli Neumann will give a talk on building a Winch.
http://ssaconvention.org/speakers/ulrich-neumann/

Our club's winch, the inspiration for his talk will also be on display on the convention floor in fron't of our club's booth next to the parachute packing tables.
https://vimeo.com/35481882

It didn't cost $200K, but we might consider selling it for that.


SF

7T......Reading your October post on Auto Tow. But first gotta tell you I have LS-1f N57T. Contest number original to Rudy Moser was 7T when I bought it in 1984.
Concerning auto tow, I used to do it quite a bit. Having learned to fly on the winch in a 2-22 at Black Forest in 1965, I found auto towing pretty much the same. The system which We all liked best was to use a pulley. Glider accelleration is so fast that two people, pilot and driver sufficed. The late Mike Evans and I used to fly together at Westcliffe, Colorado all the time. Using wing stands only we never needed a wing runner, and never ever had any problems. Radio is essential between pilot and driver. We could fine tune airspeed by voice communication. If you need 10 more knots at the glider, remember to ask only for five. The glider is traveling at twice the car speed. The reason we used the pulley was so we could tow with my manual stick Toyota Land Cruiser. With the pulley we did the entire tow in 2nd gear and did not need to shift. Shifting would have put a big strain on the car, and we were afraid it would have induced a big interuption of speed. To pulley tow with a single pulley you need a long runway and a lot of rope. We had a 4300' 3/8 poly rope with weak links at each end. We routinely saw tows ranging from 1700 to 1900 feet. At Westcliffe I cannot think of a many times that any of us had to relight. During winter the primary wave of the Sangre de Cristo Mountains is overhead and believe it or not we used to often find strong wave lift as low as 400 and 500 feet agl. Unless I had enciuntered it often and someone told me I would not believe it. But it's true. During summer thermals were plentiful and a 1700 foot tow worked fine. I did straight auto tows later when living at Pinedale Wyoming. I had a 2500 foot rope and 1600 feet agl was pretty standard. If you are going for quantity of flights then aerotow is probably faster. Repositioning the rope eats up time. I always had a parachute on the end of the rope with a 15 foot leader from the apex of the chute to the glider. That way the rope layed out straight. If after the glider has released from a pulley tow, and there is runway remaining the car can continue which pulls the rope and parachute closer to the pulley with a straight rope as the parachute lands. athis saves lots of retrieval time. C.G. hooks work best for ground launch. Nose hooks with too much back pressure at the top of the launch will cause the glider to porpoise. Releasing some back pressure remedies that. If you can get endorsed by an instructor with experience, I highly recommend ground launching. The runways we used were 6000 feet long. The setup we used to pulley tow was to attach the end of the rop to another car parked well off to the side of the runway, then loop the rope through the snatch block pulley securely tied to the tow hitch on the tow car. We tied it because it needs to be flexable. Then we pulled away from the glider. In order to tow towards the glider as in the case of a short runway, you need a second pulley to reverse direction. The pulley or pulleys need to be high quality with ball bearings and grease fittings. Mine have always been about 6 inch diameter. Also dont use nylon rope. Too much stretch. After liftoff on the pulley tow expect some bowing or slack as there is some sling shot effect as the stretch comes out of the rope. It only lasts a couple seconds so do not rotate into a steeper attitude until the rope is tight again.