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#1
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Objective Engine Discussion
I wish to begin gathering UNEMOTIONAL, tangible pros and cons on
engine choices for my Cozy Mk IV. I won't be ready to begin working on my firewall for about 12 more months. As I see it today I have the following engine choices: Lycoming 360 or XP-360 Mazda 13B or Renesis Jabiru 5100 Subaru ??? My background: - I don't know squat about engines - all I know is that they are big, heavy, expensive, you add gas and oil, and it makes the big fan go Issues I DO NOT want to discuss at this time: - Resale value - Religious discussions of using "standard" aircraft engine vs. auto conversion. Here are some questions I have at this time: 1) Fuel - Can the XP-360 use autogas? Can the listed auto engines use 100LL? For those of you using an auto engine - how do you get autogas to your plane? 2) While I hope to learn a lot more about my engine, whichever I choose, I don't expect to learn enough to do all work myself when it comes to maintenance. Obviously, the XP-360 can be repaired at most airports. For those with auto engines, what options do you have for repair? 3) Living in Denver, I expect to fly above 10,000' quite a bit. Am I going to want a turbo auto engine? What is equivilent for the XP-360? Here is my current list of Pros/Cons for XP-360 vs. auto engine: XP-360 Pros: Fairly standard, mostly plans install. Improvement over true Lycoming. Get repairs at most airports. Get 100LL any airport. Cons: Expensive repairs. Auto Engine Pros: Newer technology. Much cheaper repair. Cheaper parts at local auto parts store. Cons: Smaller knowledge base. Huge deviation from plans install. Might need custom cowling. Where to get repairs? Where to get gas? Comparisons that I see as a wash: - Initial installation costs will end up being about the same. - Installed weight/CG will be about the same. - I know nothing about either so I have the same amount to learn. I'm sure I'm missing some things here (and that is why I'm asking for help). Again, please keep answers and suggestions as objective as possible. I don't want to start religious battles with this thread. Thank you all for the help. __________________ Rick Maddy Denver, CO Cozy Mk IV #824 - Chapter 19 http://www.maddyhome.com/cozy |
#2
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And what about a diesel?
Especially as you are at some altitude? Initial cost is higher but running cost is lower. Any idea how many hours per year you'll fly? Since posting my original message I've received comments about some new Honda/Continental engine and references to the DeltaHawk Diesel. I know nothing about either but I'm open to hearing about them. Inform me Rick |
#3
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Rick Maddy wrote:
1) Fuel - Can the XP-360 use autogas? Can the listed auto engines use 100LL? For those of you using an auto engine - how do you get autogas to your plane? Since the engine is going into an experimental, you have the option of de-certifying what would otherwise be considered a "certified" engine. Many of the certified engines can be run on autogas, even when the certified engine in a certified airframe cannot. Running on autogas can significantly impact your hourly run rate, so this is an important thing to get nailed down if you want to go with a Lycoming or Continental. Auto engines can burn 100LL. The issue is (primarily) the posioning of the oxygen sensor (O2 sensor). Some auto conversions retain the O2 sensor while others do not. Since you said you don't know squat about engines, I'll assume you're going to try to get a firewall forward package. Ask the packager if 100LL is an issue. As for getting autogas to the plane: some airports have autogas (check your A/FD). Some people transport fuel to the plane in gas cans, and a few hardy souls have crafted tankers to cart fuel to the plane. See Jay Honeck's "Mighty Grape" in this forum (search Google Newsgroups) or Jim Weir's fine 54 gallon fuel trailer plans in Kitplanes magazine (IIRC). XP-360 Pros: Fairly standard, mostly plans install. Improvement over true Lycoming. Get repairs at most airports. Get 100LL any airport. Cons: Expensive repairs. Auto Engine Pros: Newer technology. Much cheaper repair. Cheaper parts at local auto parts store. Cons: Smaller knowledge base. Huge deviation from plans install. Might need custom cowling. Where to get repairs? Where to get gas? If you go the auto conversion route, you are almost 100% certain to use a water-cooled engine. This is always problematic since the airframe designer almost never plans for radiators. And cooling on canards (like the Cozy you're building) is a dicey proposition. You're opening a big can of worms. Think long and hard about copying some other Cozy builder's *successful* auto conversion. Comparisons that I see as a wash: - Initial installation costs will end up being about the same. Not really. Out-of-pocket expense for a new turnkey certified engine will be somewhat higher than those for a turnkey auto conversion, but the cost in time spent re-engineering things to fit your airframe will be much higher for the auto conversion. And the certified engine installation will be alot more deterministic (less guessing and experimenting). What's your time worth? - Installed weight/CG will be about the same. If you're lucky/careful. If you're sloppy, the auto conversion will weigh a ton. Beware. - I know nothing about either so I have the same amount to learn. There's not much to learn (societally, not individually) about putting a Lycoming or Continental in a Cozy: scores of builders have done it before and the trail is well marked. Choose a Jaibiru, 13B, Chevy, Ford, or Subaru and suddenly you're one of maybe a dozen (or less). Choose a Renesis and you'll be the trailblazer (although you could probably copy alot from a 13B). Russell Kent |
#4
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Rick Maddy wrote:
1) Fuel - Can the XP-360 use autogas? Can the listed auto engines use 100LL? For those of you using an auto engine - how do you get autogas to your plane? 100LL will kill the spark plugs in a 13B. The lead contaminates the ceramic, limiting plug life to around 25hrs. You're initial install for the 13B will be MUCH less expensive than a XP-360. You're initial learning curve and work load will be MUCH greater for a 13B than a XP-360. (Just about any plans you can buy will show a motor mount and plumbing for the 360. You're on your own with the 13B, unless you're building an RV.) Read the 'fly rotary' mailing list archives to learn more than you'd ever like about installing the 13B. -- http://www.ernest.isa-geek.org/ "Ignorance is mankinds normal state, alleviated by information and experience." Veeduber |
#6
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"Rick Maddy" wrote in message om... I wish to begin gathering UNEMOTIONAL, tangible pros and cons on engine choices for my Cozy Mk IV. I won't be ready to begin working on my firewall for about 12 more months. As I see it today I have the following engine choices: Lycoming 360 or XP-360 Mazda 13B or Renesis Jabiru 5100 Subaru ??? My background: - I don't know squat about engines - all I know is that they are big, heavy, expensive, you add gas and oil, and it makes the big fan go Issues I DO NOT want to discuss at this time: - Resale value - Religious discussions of using "standard" aircraft engine vs. auto conversion. Here are some questions I have at this time: 1) Fuel - Can the XP-360 use autogas? Can the listed auto engines use 100LL? For those of you using an auto engine - how do you get autogas to your plane? 2) While I hope to learn a lot more about my engine, whichever I choose, I don't expect to learn enough to do all work myself when it comes to maintenance. Obviously, the XP-360 can be repaired at most airports. For those with auto engines, what options do you have for repair? 3) Living in Denver, I expect to fly above 10,000' quite a bit. Am I going to want a turbo auto engine? What is equivilent for the XP-360? Here is my current list of Pros/Cons for XP-360 vs. auto engine: XP-360 Pros: Fairly standard, mostly plans install. Improvement over true Lycoming. Get repairs at most airports. Get 100LL any airport. Cons: Expensive repairs. Auto Engine Pros: Newer technology. Much cheaper repair. Cheaper parts at local auto parts store. Cons: Smaller knowledge base. Huge deviation from plans install. Might need custom cowling. Where to get repairs? Where to get gas? Comparisons that I see as a wash: - Initial installation costs will end up being about the same. - Installed weight/CG will be about the same. - I know nothing about either so I have the same amount to learn. I'm sure I'm missing some things here (and that is why I'm asking for help). Again, please keep answers and suggestions as objective as possible. I don't want to start religious battles with this thread. Thank you all for the help. __________________ Rick Maddy Denver, CO Cozy Mk IV #824 - Chapter 19 http://www.maddyhome.com/cozy IF, as you say, you don't know "squat" about engines, you'll have a bad time trying to engineer a custom engine installation. I know it is attractive to think you can save money on the initial engine cost (or subsequent fuel cost) by using an alternate engine instead of a lycoming 0-320 or 0-360. However, if your goal is to build a flying, traveling, airplane, you'll be happier with the lycoming. You won't have to engineer a custom engine mount, custom cooling and fuel systems, custom cable routings, custom electrical system, etc. You won't have to do the follow-on development work when/if your engineering wasn't quite good enough and the engine didn't run right on your first test flight. Also, with a lycoming, when it breaks (all engines and/or systems do - usually in somewhere the other side of Timbuktu), you will be able to call a dozen different vendors and get THE part you need Fed-Ex'ed to you the next day. I have an 0-320 in my RV-6, and missed SnF a couple of years ago because my neato electronic ignition died the day before the show, and the only guy in the world with replacement parts was already at the show. I couldn't get in touch with him to diagnose the problem or have parts shipped. That's the kind of thing you run into with oddball *critical* equipment on your airplane... A fellow EAA'er just spend a YEAR post first flight working out development issues with his auto conversion. He had the engine and other systems running on a bench several years before he went flying, and still had plenty of difficulties. Unless you're a tinkerer, not a flyer, go with a fully developed engine installation. KB |
#7
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Again, please keep answers and suggestions as objective as possible. I don't want to start religious battles with this thread. Thank you all for the help. Rick Maddy IF, as you say, you don't know "squat" about engines, you'll have a bad time trying to engineer a custom engine installation. I know it is attractive to think you can save money on the initial engine cost (or subsequent fuel cost) by using an alternate engine instead of a lycoming 0-320 or 0-360. However, if your goal is to build a flying, traveling, airplane, you'll be happier with the lycoming. You won't have to engineer a custom engine mount, custom cooling and fuel systems, custom cable routings, custom electrical system, etc. You won't have to do the follow-on development work when/if your engineering wasn't quite good enough and the engine didn't run right on your first test flight. Also, with a lycoming, when it breaks (all engines and/or systems do - usually in somewhere the other side of Timbuktu), you will be able to call a dozen different vendors and get THE part you need Fed-Ex'ed to you the next day. I have an 0-320 in my RV-6, and missed SnF a couple of years ago because my neato electronic ignition died the day before the show, and the only guy in the world with replacement parts was already at the show. I couldn't get in touch with him to diagnose the problem or have parts shipped. That's the kind of thing you run into with oddball *critical* equipment on your airplane... A fellow EAA'er just spend a YEAR post first flight working out development issues with his auto conversion. He had the engine and other systems running on a bench several years before he went flying, and still had plenty of difficulties. Unless you're a tinkerer, not a flyer, go with a fully developed engine installation. KB +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ DAMN, Kyle !!!! Have I died and gone to heaven? g Barnyard BOb -- Over 50 years of flight |
#8
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On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 13:48:57 -0500, Barnyard BOb --
wrote: DAMN, Kyle !!!! Have I died and gone to heaven? g Yes on one, no on two. Ron "Laugh-a while you can, Monkey-Boy!" Wanttaja |
#9
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DAMN, Kyle !!!! Have I died and gone to heaven? g Yes on one, no on two. Ron "Laugh-a while you can, Monkey-Boy!" Wanttaja +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Yes, Ron. Bless Kevin and Kyle for their thoughtful input. Perhaps it's time to retire from RAH while I have some positive momentum. NAH.... No way. ;-) Barnyard BOb -- 3 cheers for today's Kansas City Chiefs |
#10
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On Sun, 05 Oct 2003 17:02:28 -0500, Barnyard BOb -- wrote:
DAMN, Kyle !!!! Have I died and gone to heaven? g Yes on one, no on two. Ron "Laugh-a while you can, Monkey-Boy!" Wanttaja +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Yes, Ron. Bless Kevin and Kyle for their thoughtful input. Perhaps it's time to retire from RAH while I have some positive momentum. NAH.... No way. ;-) Barnyard BOb -- 3 cheers for today's Kansas City Chiefs I will admit that I was quite disturbed to find myself in agreement with BOb for once. I'm hoping that means he is becoming more like me and not the converse -- Kevin Horton RV-8 (finishing kit) Ottawa, Canada http://go.phpwebhosting.com/~khorton/rv8/ e-mail: khorton02(_at_)rogers(_dot_)com |
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