Average number of flights to solo for ab-initio students?

On Jan 22, 1:06*pm, T wrote:
On Jan 22, 7:53*am, Frank Paynter wrote:

My club uses the volunteer instructor model for student instruction,
and I am trying to determine how effective this model is versus
commercial soaring center instruction. *Based on my review of our
records (such as they are) it appears it takes our students an average
of 33 flights from 'first ride' to solo.

Anyone else out there have similar objective data from their
operations?

TIA

Frank (TA)

A lot of data is missing from your basic determination of first flight
to solo.
Commercial operations are able to operate more days than just weekend
clubs. This allows closer repetitive flying days for the student. Are
you separating data of "add-on" and primary students? Does your club
maintaining training records and standard syllabus folders for the
volunteer instructors and students to review during the pre brief? Are
your instructors assigning reading material to prepare for the next
lesson? Or do your instructors just say "jump in let's go".

Are your students there at least one day every weekend and stay for
more than just thier lesson? A student who flies every other week or
has longer delays between fly days will need to repeat the last
lesson. Are assigned readings reviewed before the flight and the
syllabus followed? Is the student prepared? If they are instructed in
the checklist, shown the material in the handbook, and told to
memorize it for the next week. And then they show up to fly and had
not cracked the book, they are wasting the instructors free time and
their money.

A club with volunteer instructors can operate efficiently with a good
syllabus and lead instructor guidance.

I would venture that our numbers are slightly lower, but I have not
crunched or tracked the data. Everyone gets that student that just has
"the hands", and the student that does not, but thinks he already
knows everything. The second student will take more lessons to
complete.

T

Thanks for the input, but I'm not really interested in any of the
intangible aspects or 'which is better' arguments regarding commercial
operators vs club. I'm just trying to determine whether or not there
is a significant difference in the 'flights-to-solo' data, and whether
or not there is any real data on this parameter at all, commercial or
club.

Regards,

TA

Thanks for the input, but I'm not really interested in any of the
intangible aspects or 'which is better'

As you know, you need to define 'better'.

http://home.comcast.net/~verhulst/GB...lubvscomml.htm

Tony "6N"

I am a CFIG at a small club in SE Pennsylvania using a Blanik L23. I have signed off for solo about 50 ab-initio students. Ages range from 13 years to 70. My general rule of thumb is 20 flights to solo for someone 20 years old or younger increasing one flight for every year the student is older than 20 years old. A 50 year old would take 50 flights, a 35 year old, 35 flights. Several of my teenage students could have soloed in 10 flights or less but US FAR pre-solo requirements and safety considerations usually extend it to 20 flights. I am the only instructor each of my students has except I will usually try to have the student fly one flight with the other CFIG in our club as a QA check. Our club is active from April to late November. I use Tom Knauff's syllabus for instruction.
- Barry

On Jan 22, 1:27*pm, Frank Paynter wrote:
On Jan 22, 1:06*pm, T wrote:





On Jan 22, 7:53*am, Frank Paynter wrote:

My club uses the volunteer instructor model for student instruction,
and I am trying to determine how effective this model is versus
commercial soaring center instruction. *Based on my review of our
records (such as they are) it appears it takes our students an average
of 33 flights from 'first ride' to solo.

Anyone else out there have similar objective data from their
operations?

TIA

Frank (TA)

A lot of data is missing from your basic determination of first flight
to solo.
Commercial operations are able to operate more days than just weekend
clubs. This allows closer repetitive flying days for the student. Are
you separating data of "add-on" and primary students? Does your club
maintaining training records and standard syllabus folders for the
volunteer instructors and students to review during the pre brief? Are
your instructors assigning reading material to prepare for the next
lesson? Or do your instructors just say "jump in let's go".

Are your students there at least one day every weekend and stay for
more than just thier lesson? A student who flies every other week or
has longer delays between fly days will need to repeat the last
lesson. Are assigned readings reviewed before the flight and the
syllabus followed? Is the student prepared? If they are instructed in
the checklist, shown the material in the handbook, and told to
memorize it for the next week. And then they show up to fly and had
not cracked the book, they are wasting the instructors free time and
their money.

A club with volunteer instructors can operate efficiently with a good
syllabus and lead instructor guidance.

I would venture that our numbers are slightly lower, but I have not
crunched or tracked the data. Everyone gets that student that just has
"the hands", and the student that does not, but thinks he already
knows everything. The second student will take more lessons to
complete.

T

Thanks for the input, but I'm not really interested in any of the
intangible aspects or 'which is better' arguments regarding commercial
operators vs club. *I'm just trying to determine whether or not there
is a significant difference in the 'flights-to-solo' data, and whether
or not there is any real data on this parameter at all, commercial or
club.

Regards,

TA- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

At my club, York Soaring Association near Toronto
(www.yorksoaring.com), we teach ab initio students in a 2-33 (so tht
means fewer flights to solo than a Blanik L-23, which is fewer than a
Grob 103, etc) and our experience for young student pilots flying up
to four lessons a day every flyable day during the week and weekends
shows an average of fewer than 25 flights to solo. More flights are
required on average with older students, less aptitude, and less
frequent flying.

BTW, after the licence is completed, we encourage additional training
in the G 103 or ASK-21. Like with sailing, the journey itself is the
destination.

Speaking on behalf of a well regarded and popular instructor on the
West Coast, he once commented to me:
"I've noticed that the average number of flights to solo is about the
same as the age (years) of the student. And once you get past age 50,
some students can never be soloed."

Now I assume he meant those students who are not transition power
pilots, nor ones who had a few flights when they were much younger.
YMMV.


Kemp

At 18:27 22 January 2012, Frank Paynter wrote:
On Jan 22, 1:06=A0pm, T wrote:
On Jan 22, 7:53=A0am, Frank Paynter wrote:

My club uses the volunteer instructor model for student instruction,
and I am trying to determine how effective this model is versus
commercial soaring center instruction. =A0Based on my review of our
records (such as they are) it appears it takes our students an
average
of 33 flights from 'first ride' to solo.

Anyone else out there have similar objective data from their
operations?

TIA

Frank (TA)

A lot of data is missing from your basic determination of first flight
to solo.
Commercial operations are able to operate more days than just weekend
clubs. This allows closer repetitive flying days for the student. Are
you separating data of "add-on" and primary students? Does your club
maintaining training records and standard syllabus folders for the
volunteer instructors and students to review during the pre brief? Are
your instructors assigning reading material to prepare for the next
lesson? Or do your instructors just say "jump in let's go".

Are your students there at least one day every weekend and stay for
more than just thier lesson? A student who flies every other week or
has longer delays between fly days will need to repeat the last
lesson. Are assigned readings reviewed before the flight and the
syllabus followed? Is the student prepared? If they are instructed in
the checklist, shown the material in the handbook, and told to
memorize it for the next week. And then they show up to fly and had
not cracked the book, they are wasting the instructors free time and
their money.

A club with volunteer instructors can operate efficiently with a good
syllabus and lead instructor guidance.

I would venture that our numbers are slightly lower, but I have not
crunched or tracked the data. Everyone gets that student that just has
"the hands", and the student that does not, but thinks he already
knows everything. The second student will take more lessons to
complete.

T

Thanks for the input, but I'm not really interested in any of the
intangible aspects or 'which is better' arguments regarding commercial
operators vs club. I'm just trying to determine whether or not there
is a significant difference in the 'flights-to-solo' data, and whether
or not there is any real data on this parameter at all, commercial or
club.

Regards,

TA



Respectfully, Frank, without accounting for the confounders, the data is
relatively meaningless. Commercial operations are more likely to have older
students who can pay commercial rates, but for some reason seem to take
longer. Clubs are more likely to operate fewer days per year than
commercial operations, but have a different way of looking at students. In
addition, clubs in the south can operate more days than clubs in the north,
so a student who starts in September in Minnesota will not solo as soon as
a student who starts in September in southern California.

Young sailplane pilots seem to progress faster WRT stick and rudder skills,
but the most important skill in flying is aeronautical decision making. I'm
not sure 30 flights prepares a young person (or and old person, for that
matter) to make safe decisions in anything other than the conditions he/she
has already experienced. The danger always occurs in situations the pilot
is not experienced in. My club, the Texas Soaring Association, is very
conservative in granting solo privileges to students. I can't tell you the
average number of flights, and I'm not an instructor, but I was a student
just a couple of years ago. The instructors place a high level of
importance on being able to make good decisions in emergency situations,
while the routine MCA and unusual attitude recovery situations are just
expected normal proficiency.

At TSA, our student pilots don't solo until they've have spin training and
can demonstrate safe recovery. How many clubs have such a requirement? What
other differences in instructional philosophy exist at other sites?

So, without adjusting for the confounders, the data is not statistically
valuable. I suggest that you request data from sites that are similar to
yours in geography and daily operation, and have about the same number of
instructors available.

Best regards,

Jeff

Frank, Maybe the better question would be "What was YOUR experience for
first flight to solo?"

Mine:
Already a private pilot SEL with hanglider and ultralight experience, was
at a commercial FBO and it took 10 flights to solo and 20 to check ride.

CH Ventus B

At 03:59 23 January 2012, Jeff Casto wrote:
At 18:27 22 January 2012, Frank Paynter wrote:
On Jan 22, 1:06=A0pm, T wrote:
On Jan 22, 7:53=A0am, Frank Paynter wrote:

My club uses the volunteer instructor model for student instruction,
and I am trying to determine how effective this model is versus
commercial soaring center instruction. =A0Based on my review of our
records (such as they are) it appears it takes our students an
average
of 33 flights from 'first ride' to solo.

Anyone else out there have similar objective data from their
operations?

TIA

Frank (TA)

A lot of data is missing from your basic determination of first flight
to solo.
Commercial operations are able to operate more days than just weekend
clubs. This allows closer repetitive flying days for the student. Are
you separating data of "add-on" and primary students? Does your club
maintaining training records and standard syllabus folders for the
volunteer instructors and students to review during the pre brief? Are
your instructors assigning reading material to prepare for the next
lesson? Or do your instructors just say "jump in let's go".

Are your students there at least one day every weekend and stay for
more than just thier lesson? A student who flies every other week or
has longer delays between fly days will need to repeat the last
lesson. Are assigned readings reviewed before the flight and the
syllabus followed? Is the student prepared? If they are instructed in
the checklist, shown the material in the handbook, and told to
memorize it for the next week. And then they show up to fly and had
not cracked the book, they are wasting the instructors free time and
their money.

A club with volunteer instructors can operate efficiently with a good
syllabus and lead instructor guidance.

I would venture that our numbers are slightly lower, but I have not
crunched or tracked the data. Everyone gets that student that just has
"the hands", and the student that does not, but thinks he already
knows everything. The second student will take more lessons to
complete.

T

Thanks for the input, but I'm not really interested in any of the
intangible aspects or 'which is better' arguments regarding commercial
operators vs club. I'm just trying to determine whether or not there
is a significant difference in the 'flights-to-solo' data, and whether
or not there is any real data on this parameter at all, commercial or
club.

Regards,

TA



Respectfully, Frank, without accounting for the confounders, the data is
relatively meaningless. Commercial operations are more likely to have
older
students who can pay commercial rates, but for some reason seem to take
longer. Clubs are more likely to operate fewer days per year than
commercial operations, but have a different way of looking at students.
In
addition, clubs in the south can operate more days than clubs in the
north,
so a student who starts in September in Minnesota will not solo as soon
as
a student who starts in September in southern California.

Young sailplane pilots seem to progress faster WRT stick and rudder
skills,
but the most important skill in flying is aeronautical decision making.
I'm
not sure 30 flights prepares a young person (or and old person, for that
matter) to make safe decisions in anything other than the conditions
he/she
has already experienced. The danger always occurs in situations the pilot
is not experienced in. My club, the Texas Soaring Association, is very
conservative in granting solo privileges to students. I can't tell you
the
average number of flights, and I'm not an instructor, but I was a student
just a couple of years ago. The instructors place a high level of
importance on being able to make good decisions in emergency situations,
while the routine MCA and unusual attitude recovery situations are just
expected normal proficiency.

At TSA, our student pilots don't solo until they've have spin training
and
can demonstrate safe recovery. How many clubs have such a requirement?
What
other differences in instructional philosophy exist at other sites?

So, without adjusting for the confounders, the data is not statistically
valuable. I suggest that you request data from sites that are similar to
yours in geography and daily operation, and have about the same number of
instructors available.

Best regards,

Jeff

Interesting debate.
Just to throw some survey results into the discusion, see:-
http://tinyurl.com/6vttgx5
for survey at Scottish Gliding Centre April 2009
brgds
Colin


At 16:57 23 January 2012, Cliff Hilty wrote:
Frank, Maybe the better question would be "What was YOUR experience for
first flight to solo?"

Mine:
Already a private pilot SEL with hanglider and ultralight experience, was
at a commercial FBO and it took 10 flights to solo and 20 to check ride.

CH Ventus B
snip

On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 21:23:43 +0000, Colin Hamilton wrote:

Interesting debate.
Just to throw some survey results into the discusion, see:-
http://tinyurl.com/6vttgx5 for survey at Scottish Gliding Centre April
2009 brgds Colin

That's a very interesting read. Thanks for posting the URL. My club
(Cambridge) hasn't done that analysis AFAIK, but certainly my experience
was comparable, the more so as we're both predominantly winch sites.
However, geography probably has an effect. I think I can see two effects:

- I'd guess you average somewhat fewer launches to solo than us,
mainly because you have the Bishop and we don't, so for half the year
our training flights will be 6 minute sled rides.

- Bronze to Silver differs a lot too. We still have a lot of Silver C
completions very soon after Bronze XC endorsement, which in turn is
often quite soon after Bronze completion. In our case that's because
new solo pilots are converted to the Juniors within 10 launches or so
of going solo and are then encouraged to complete the duration
flights for Bronze and XC endorsement plus Silver height and
duration as part of the 50 launches needed for Bronze. As a result,
its quite common for a pilot to sit the Bronze written test over winter
while working on the the Bronze flights, then to do the XC nav and field
landing stuff in the SF-25 as well as the spot landings (in a Junior)
as soon as weather permits. Then they can complete Silver C with a
flight to Rattlesden or HusBos as soon as the next suitable day appears.
Seasonal weather, i.e. no soaring for us for half the year, says that
very often a pilot will be ready to do Silver Distance in late summer
when the crops are down, which is very convenient for all concerned.

In my case I joined the club in March, soloed that August, and then took
almost exactly a year to complete Bronze, having done the written over
the winter. Over 8 days next August during the Regionals I did Silver
Duration in a Junior, completed the Bronze CCE Nav/field selection
exercises in our SF-25 and was sent off to Rattlesden in a Junior to
finish Silver - very slowly in the blue (2hrs 44min for the 68km).

My guess is that our shorter period between Bronze XC and Silver has a
lot to do with both the flatness of the surrounding area, and hence lots
of landout fields once the crops are down, and somewhat less airspace for
a new pilot to blunder into than you guys have.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |