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"John" wrote in message thlink.net...
Some simple truths: ===================== God loves you. snip (mostly to please His Highness Master Usenet-er Top Poster) Can we stop with the religious trolls, already? If that's not an option, can we at least have some Judaic (?), Islamic, Hindu, Jainist (?), etc. tracts thrown in for variety? Yours in Ras Tafari (almighty God is a living man), Zippy |
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When confronted by these types, whether at my front door or elsewhere, I
just firmly tell them that my religious beliefs are my own private business and not something I wish to debate with them .. and then walk away or shut the door. My CFI for my PPL was a minister. He never even approached religion as part of our discussions. And I used to kid him that I felt like I had TWO CFIs when I flew with him. My CFI for my helicopter stuff was an Adventist missionary pilot. These fine gentlemen let their actions and how they conducted their lives speak. They didn't try to convert or force their views on me. To me this was far more powerful then aggressive recruiting. "Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:Wwfvb.262377$Fm2.278122@attbi_s04... Yesterday was clear, in the 60s (in November in Iowa!), and -- best of all -- our day off. With the kids in school, and the plane fully fueled, it was off to...where? Prairie du Chein, sitting at the confluence of the Mississippi and Wisconsin Rivers, beckoned, with its beautiful approaches, favorable runways, and a riverboat casino that would fetch us over to their excellent lunch buffet. So, we pointed Atlas in that general direction, and puttered our way to Wisconsin at a paltry 109 knots -- we were bucking a 35 knot headwind all the way! Luckily, above 3500 feet it was smooth as a baby's bottom. Calling PDC from 10 minutes out, we asked them to call the casino's courtesy vehicle for us. To our surprise, they announced that it was "already on the way" -- apparently someone was there ahead of us, and had already made the call. After a beautiful (if bumpy) approach (thanks to the wind hitting the huge bluffs that line the river by PDC) I taxied up to the terminal, and parked next to a gorgeous blood-red Mooney. It was immaculate, and the paint really set it apart. Upon strolling inside, we discovered two older gentlemen, one of whom owned the Mooney -- evidently the folks who had called the casino. The courtesy van was already there, so we hopped in the back and all rode over together. The usual introductions were made, and standard pilot talk ensued. It turned out that the Mooney was a '67 model, and both guys were retired and in their mid-70s. One had been a Sears store manager for many years, and the other -- the owner of the Mooney -- was a successful real estate developer. The conversation flowed smoothly, and the ride went quickly. As we disembarked from the van, we bid them adieu and went our separate ways. In the buffet line, we ran into them again. While I was filling my salad bowl, the old Sears manager asked me if we cared to join them for lunch? Since we were sans kids, and they were mighty nice company, Mary and I allowed that joining them was a grand idea, and proceeded to confuse the wait staff by moving our beverages across the room to their table. Once we were all seated with our food, the real estate guy announced that it was their habit to pray before meals, and asked if we might join them. I frankly found this a bit odd, in a casino buffet, but to be polite we affirmed the idea and bowed our heads while the Sears guy recited a prayer about safe flying and good eating. Mary and I exchanged the old "uh-oh" glance, but we still hoped that things would progress normally. It was not to be. As lunch proceeded, we began discussing Iowa City, and how terrific the school system was, and they guided the conversation uncomfortably into what church we attended with our kids. Mary struggled bravely to answer that question in a way that wouldn't offend these obviously religious men, but there was simply no way to hide the fact that we didn't take them to ANY church. I then proceeded to explain that we had both been raised hyper-Catholic, and had been bludgeoned to death with our heavy-handed religious upbringings. We were going to let our children decide their religion when they reached the age of reason. This was a mistake. I might as well have tossed blood into shark-infested waters. The next question, after a pause, was from the Sears guy, asking whether we had Gideon bibles in our hotel suites. I chuckled, and allowed that we did. I then went on to say how we'd even seen some competition amongst the various religious sects in town, with the Mormons trying to get us to put their "Book of Mormon" texts in all the suites, too. Still chuckling, I remarked that we had to draw the line somewhere, or we'd have to put the Koran and the Hindu texts in the suites, too. This was another mistake. The Sears guy turned out to be a Gideon, and he didn't warm to the notion that I was equating his King James Bible with the Koran. Soon, both men were quoting scripture to us, chapter and verse, "proving" how "easy" it was to be "saved" by the "true Lord, Jesus", as opposed to the heathen gods of the other religions. By now we were both growing incredibly uncomfortable, and I had that horrible "this must be a nightmare" feeling rising in the pit of my stomach. Not knowing whether to bolt or tell them to f*ck off, I just sat there silently, dumbly smiling at them in disbelief. Then the Sears guy asked me if I knew how "truly easy" it was to be "saved"? I replied, quite honestly, "no". (ANOTHER mistake!) He then told me that I didn't have to close my eyes, nor did I even have to be in church -- I only had to say the following prayer along with him, giving myself over to Jesus Christ. He then asked, directly, "Would I be willing to say this little prayer aloud with him?" The heat in my face was really rising now, and I felt like everyone in that casino was staring DIRECTLY at the back of my head. What could I say to someone so earnest, yet so incredibly rude? I smiled, placed my hand firmly on his shoulder, and told him that I most certainly was NOT going to pray with him in a casino. I then went back to eating, trying to think of some way -- ANY way -- to escape this insane situation. Mary finally came up with the answer -- she bolted, and went to the bathroom! Abandoned, I was a helpless target for their religious zeal, and felt myself being carried along by their verbal diarrhea. There was simply no escape, and I politely listened while they explained to me everything from everlasting salvation, to the tax advantages of tithing 20% of my income to the church... At last Mary returned, and announced that we were late to get back to pick up the kids from school. Never had I been so grateful for bad news in my life, and I quickly jumped up, shook both their hands, thanked them for an "interesting" lunch, and headed toward the door, on the double. Feeling like I'd just been delivered from the Gates of Hell, we told the driver (the same guy who had picked us up) about the two bible-beater pilots. He was as dumb-founded as we were, and apologized profusely, as if he had just forced us to eat lunch with a couple of sloppy drunks. He allowed that their kind was exceedingly rare at the casino -- an observation that made us laugh out loud. We then warned him to keep his mouth shut when he gave them a ride back, or risk wasting the entire afternoon, which got him chuckling -- until his radio crackled to life, and the dispatcher announced that he had "Two more to go back to the airport" when he got back. His face fell as he knew that deliverance would not be his today... Then it was *our* turn to laugh! Our flight home was fast (175 knots, thanks to that tail wind) and uneventful, but our lunch had been completely ruined, and we could only shake our heads in wonder at the audacity of these men. The gall and sheer tastelessness of their behavior had us recounting every detail of the experience all the way home, as if we had just witnessed a train wreck. We realized (with a shudder) that these men were only one or two steps removed from the Islamo-Fascists we are currently fighting in the Middle East, the only difference being their hair style and their dogma. Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers in every walk of life EXCEPT aviation. I guess I had assumed that anyone smart enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers. I still have a hard time believing that it wasn't some sort of a "Candid Camera" set up, but I'm afraid they really, honestly thought they were doing the right thing. Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do? -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
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Said non stop not allowing them to interrupt you:
"I'm really happy that you and your friend are comfortable with your religious views and are here at the casino seeking souls to save but my wife and I are really comfortable with our own religious beliefs and prefer not to discuss them in public nor with strangers. I'm sure that there are people here that are more in need of your sermon as the evils of gambling can indeed have a detrimental effect on those who can not afford it. We're sure that your help is truly needed elsewhere but when we accepted your kind offer to dine with you without the pretense of a religious conversation. Being pilots, like us, we expected to converse about airplanes and piloting. Please feel free to move on to other worthy souls. Thankyou for the entertainment, and have a great flight home, hit 16 stay on 17, lean above 3000, split 10s or better, double down on 20, Vx then Vy, lower the nose and kiss the sky." You were hit by 2 salesmen, nothing more. You didn't want to buy what they were selling. Treat them the same as any other unwanted salesman. Surely at the Inn you must get salesmen that come in asking for "The Head of Maintenence", without knowing his name. Kindly tell them no, then show them the door. Learn how to bull**** the bull****ter, they typically don't know how to react to having to eat their own crap. Their rights end when they interfere with your rights. -- Jim Burns III Raised Catholic but will die free. Watched people build a congregation so a priest could tear it down. Watched Bishops sell the churches out from under the people then rape their pocketbooks for new ones. Watched priests come and go but never stay, only milking the community for all it was worth before deserting them. Watched priests give parish funds to drug dealers. Watched priests sell parish property against parishioners wishes. Watched priests refuse to marry or baptize "certain" people of the parish. .....and on and on and on God has no religion, people create religion for their own gain. God doesn't ruin religion, people ruin religion. Remove "nospam" to reply |
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Raised Catholic but will die free.
Watched people build a congregation so a priest could tear it down. Watched Bishops sell the churches out from under the people then rape their pocketbooks for new ones. Watched priests come and go but never stay, only milking the community for all it was worth before deserting them. Watched priests give parish funds to drug dealers. Watched priests sell parish property against parishioners wishes. Watched priests refuse to marry or baptize "certain" people of the parish. ....and on and on and on God has no religion, people create religion for their own gain. God doesn't ruin religion, people ruin religion. Wow, Jim -- I didn't know you attended the same church I went to as a boy! ;-) -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
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Jay, if you were going about your business and they stopped you on the
street, I'd see your point. But you voluntarily joined a couple of complete strangers for lunch. When you do that, you've got to be prepared for surprises. You may not agree with their beliefs or especially how they expressed them, but this is still America. Personally, I believe what I believe and if anyone tries to change my mind, I either listen or move on. My guess is that they got you thinking about something you don't want to deal with. -- Gene Seibel Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html Because I fly, I envy no one. Soon, both men were quoting scripture to us, chapter and verse, "proving" how "easy" it was to be "saved" by the "true Lord, Jesus", as opposed to the heathen gods of the other religions. By now we were both growing incredibly uncomfortable, and I had that horrible "this must be a nightmare" feeling rising in the pit of my stomach. Not knowing whether to bolt or tell them to f*ck off, I just sat there silently, dumbly smiling at them in disbelief. |
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Jay, if you were going about your business and they stopped you on the
street, I'd see your point. But you voluntarily joined a couple of complete strangers for lunch. True, but they were pilots. How many times have you joined a couple of pilots for a (beer, lunch, dinner, pool party, fill in the blank) and had a WONDERFUL time? IMHO, these guys were nothing more than shills, masquerading as pilots. My guess is that they got you thinking about something you don't want to deal with. Well, you're almost right. Religion is not something I want to deal with when I'm eating lunch in a casino, any more than it's something I want to read about on the bumper of the car ahead of me in traffic. I'll never understand why anyone feels compelled to advertise their religion in such tacky and disrespectful ways. -- Jay Honeck Iowa City, IA Pathfinder N56993 www.AlexisParkInn.com "Your Aviation Destination" |
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On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 03:21:26 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote: I guess I had assumed that anyone smart enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers. The best proselyting is done by showing the example of a happy life. There is, IMO, no inconsistency to be found by finding a confessed Protestant in a casino. For so many denominations the only requirement is that little prayer. Plenty of Baptist grammas go to Vegas, I think. I still have a hard time believing that it wasn't some sort of a "Candid Camera" set up, but I'm afraid they really, honestly thought they were doing the right thing. Anyone ever run into this before? What did you do? You, in your cordial Midwestern way, fed a pair of Christian proseletyzers your time and attention. You gave them an impression of interest that they, in their zeal, failed to notice was more than just good Midwestern friendliness. They take advantage of that, and it's certainly not your fault. What I usually do is raise the ante. I've got a pretty strong set of beliefs, so I listen to what they have to say and then make sure they know that I'm very committed to my own belief system, and would they like to know more about that? Another thing that works nicely is, "I know you believe that, guys, but I think your premise is simply incorrect and unprovable, and what I'm looking for must be provable." If not, then, "I guess our conversation is concluded, gentlemen. Have a nice flight home," and off we go. Rob -- [You] don't make your kids P.C.-proof by keeping them ignorant, you do it by helping them learn how to educate themselves. -- Orson Scott Card |
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"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:Wwfvb.262377$Fm2.278122@attbi_s04... | | Until yesterday I had run into religious fanatics and cult followers in | every walk of life EXCEPT aviation. I guess I had assumed that anyone smart | enough to get their pilot's certificate couldn't be so gullible -- and | rude -- as to go around trying to "save" perfect strangers. Well, speaking as a 'religious fanatic,' which apparently means anyone whose religious views differ from yours, I would have to observe that pilots on the whole are extremely gullible and even superstitious. I have had pilots try to peddle to me everything from magnetic healing devices to fraudulent investments to legal protection plans (see AOPA, for an example of a legal services plan that covers almost nothing) to broken down airplanes. Gullibility is not reduced by greater intelligence. In fact, I think it takes a certain minimum intelligence to be fooled. Of course, if you want to just mess with people's minds, you can offer them the Consolation of Haldane as Carl Sagan put it: "in an infinitely old universe with an infinite number of appearances of galaxies, stars, planets, and life, an identical Earth must reappear on which you and all your loved ones will be reunited. I'll be able to see my parents again and introduce them to the grandchildren they never knew. And all this will happen not once, but an infinite number of times....there will be universes, indeed an infinite number of them, in which our brains will have full recollection of many previous rounds." Of course, in infinite numbers of universes Hitler (and even worse!) will arise again and work their horrors upon humanity. But then (I modestly call this Campbell's corollary to Haldane's Consolation), in infinite numbers of universes, there must also arise infinite numbers of beings that basically have all the characteristics ascribed to God -- and not just the Judeo/Christian God, but all the gods ever imagined, as well as all the devils, fairies, demons, angels, balrogs, whatever, as well as beings capable of moving between these universes, soooooo...... somewhere there really is an Oz, a Middle Earth, or a Narnia, and in an infinite number of these places there is a guy named Jay Honeck who runs a hotel. |
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"Jim" wrote in message ... | CJ, you're starting to scare me | -- I trust that the Middle Earth Jay Honeck will be somwhat more competent than Butterbur. :-) |
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