New 29 Palms Winchfest Video

One of the event participants patched together a good marketing video
for our club from this years Winchfest at 29 Palms California. Three
winches, four clubs participated in a "best practices" styled event.

Watch the Video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0hDZa41rVc

HoUdino

Nice production.

I hate to be a pooper of sorts, but I can't let go unmentioned a
dangerous practice that is seen to be deliberately done by pilots in
the video:

Taking off with a wing low.

This can put a glider on it's back, or nose straight down in a flash.
It is very dangerous and happens before the pilot can even react. Even
if he/she does reactr extremely quickly, it'll still put the glider
into the ground nose first at high speed. This has happened several
times and I saw a picture sequence of just that in Aerokurier years
ago.

In a cross wind, a launch should still be wings level - always. After
the glider is over the safety altitude, the pilot can correct for the
cross wind - not before. So as not to be distracted by

What happens is that should a wingtip drag enough or God forbid snag,
full rudder may not be enough to correct and the other, high wingtip,
will rise up, turning the nose to the ground. If the pilot delays
releasing for even an instant, the glider will continue rotating till
inverted and lands nose first inverted or it smashes into the ground
nose first, going 90 degrees or so from the launch direction,
depending on glider type and relative position, tip drag, etc...

So please. Always launch with wings level, even in a strong cross wind
till safety altitude. Winch Launches are different from air tows and
require different considerations.
action.

tommytoyz wrote:
Nice production.

I hate to be a pooper of sorts, but I can't let go unmentioned a
dangerous practice that is seen to be deliberately done by pilots in
the video:

Taking off with a wing low.

This can put a glider on it's back, or nose straight down in a flash.
It is very dangerous and happens before the pilot can even react. Even
if he/she does reactr extremely quickly, it'll still put the glider
into the ground nose first at high speed. This has happened several
times and I saw a picture sequence of just that in Aerokurier years
ago.

In a cross wind, a launch should still be wings level - always. After
the glider is over the safety altitude, the pilot can correct for the
cross wind - not before. So as not to be distracted by


I also noticed the consistent series of tip drops: with so many launches
lowering the same tip it looks as if this was encouraged (or not
discouraged) by the duty instructors.

Despite what the OP said, that was NOT best practise. Keep the wings
level and use the rudder alone to keep straight. Could I suggest that
the clubs in question get copies of the BGA Instructor's Manual and/or
the winch safety leaflet and make sure that all instructors read it
before again acting as a winch launching P1?

See S&G for April/May 2006, p38 for reinforcement. It has pictures and
commentary of a tip touch with an ASK-13. The P1's glove slipped on the
release knob so it needed a second grab to release. The tip is still on
the ground after 1 second and the main wheel is just lifting off. After
2 seconds the glider is airborne and has swung 40 degrees. That's one
place I never want to be in.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

I certainly hope that winch launching becomes the norm in Southern
California where I now live. It's a far more fun and I think safer
method to get into the air VS. air tows, not to mention cheaper and
faster.

When flying in Germany, I had the pleasure of hundreds of winch
launches. The launch itself is a blast. As a result, air tows only
make up a fraction of the launches in all of Europe.

Living now in southern California, I hope that the local clubs learn
the best practices already learned elsewhere and avoid an unnecessary
accident. As with anything, if done incorrectly, it can be dangerous.
When done correctly, winch launching is very safe, IMHO.

tommytoyz wrote:
I certainly hope that winch launching becomes the norm in Southern
California where I now live. It's a far more fun and I think safer
method to get into the air VS. air tows, not to mention cheaper and
faster.

When flying in Germany, I had the pleasure of hundreds of winch
launches. The launch itself is a blast. As a result, air tows only
make up a fraction of the launches in all of Europe.

Living now in southern California, I hope that the local clubs learn
the best practices already learned elsewhere and avoid an unnecessary
accident. As with anything, if done incorrectly, it can be dangerous.
When done correctly, winch launching is very safe, IMHO.

I couldn't agree more.

I've done 52 launches during 2007, of which only 13 were aero tow - and
11 of those were during visits to another field which only offers aero
tow. The remaining two, one was when out field was too soggy to tow
cables out and the other was part of my annual checks.

Unlike some, I prefer to fly xc off the winch on the grounds that this
gives me foresight of conditions between 1200 ft and cloudbase, which
may be useful if/when I get low during the flight. The only drawback I
can see is that I'm useless at picking lift when on tow.






--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

One of the event participants patched together a good
marketing video for our club from this years Winchfest
at 29 Palms California. Three winches, four clubs participated
in a 'best practices' styled event.

Watch the Video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0hDZa41rVc

HoUdino

Having talked with a couple pilots who attended this
event, they related a few things that beg clarification.

1. They talked about some young pilot winch launching
a 1-26 who appeared to do a rather violent PIO on
launch. Which apparently resulted in his head going
thru the canopy, him blacking out and looping at least
once, possibly twice upon release before managing to
land in the opposite direction from launch. The pilot
was then taken to the hospital by helicopter.
Could someone else elaborate on this report.

2. I was at a seminar where Bill Daniels was quite
strong about the concept that pilots should lower the
nose to speed up and raise the nose to slow down.
I have been told that at this event pilots were told
the opposite, being raise the nose to speed up and
lower the nose to slow down. Why does there still
appear to be such opposing opinions as to what is
the correct procedure during launch? How can both
procedures be correct?

3. Pilots were told that while on winch launch they
are flying at zero angle of attack. Is this possible?

I'm no winch launch expert, just looking for some clarification

Soarin Again wrote:
2. I was at a seminar where Bill Daniels was quite
strong about the concept that pilots should lower the
nose to speed up and raise the nose to slow down.
I have been told that at this event pilots were told
the opposite, being raise the nose to speed up and
lower the nose to slow down. Why does there still
appear to be such opposing opinions as to what is
the correct procedure during launch? How can both
procedures be correct?

Bill should have made it quite clear that he was talking about tension
controlled winches, of which there are very few in use (and none in the
US). For a conventional throttle controlled winch, once the transition
has been made to full climb, you can pull to speed up ("water skier"
effect) and push to slow down within limits, if the throttle setting is
simply wrong you must signal the winch driver accordingly.

3. Pilots were told that while on winch launch they
are flying at zero angle of attack. Is this possible?

Not zero, but at a normal (i.e., not 45 degrees) positive AOA, ideally
that for best L/D. Hence the interest in AOA meters.

Marc

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
...
Soarin Again wrote:
2. I was at a seminar where Bill Daniels was quite
strong about the concept that pilots should lower the
nose to speed up and raise the nose to slow down.
I have been told that at this event pilots were told
the opposite, being raise the nose to speed up and
lower the nose to slow down. Why does there still
appear to be such opposing opinions as to what is
the correct procedure during launch? How can both
procedures be correct?

Bill should have made it quite clear that he was talking about tension
controlled winches, of which there are very few in use (and none in the
US). For a conventional throttle controlled winch, once the transition
has been made to full climb, you can pull to speed up ("water skier"
effect) and push to slow down within limits, if the throttle setting is
simply wrong you must signal the winch driver accordingly.

3. Pilots were told that while on winch launch they
are flying at zero angle of attack. Is this possible?

Not zero, but at a normal (i.e., not 45 degrees) positive AOA, ideally
that for best L/D. Hence the interest in AOA meters.

Marc

As for the story about the 1-26 pilot, I have spoken at length with people
who were in attendance at Twentynine Palms and they didn't relate this story
to me so I assume the event either didn't happen or is extremely
exaggerated.

The point I made about airspeed control is that most, if not all, all US
winches are underpowered and therefore tension limited. Raising the nose
will increase cable tension and reduce airspeed by pulling down the winch
engine RPM. I have never experienced airspeed increase with increased
backpressure. The math says that for airspeed to increase with increased
pitch ("water skier effect") the cable tension would have to be in excess of
the weak link strength - it ain't gonna happen.

What does happen is that the glider is still accelerating during the
rotation into the climb and some pilots (Mostly pilots with no airplane
experience.) will jump to the conclusion that there is a cause and effect -
i.e. since the nose is going up and the airspeed is increasing, there must
be a reverse airspeed/pitch relationship. In realilty, once stabilized in
the climb the airspeed/pitch ralationship is normal. (Pitch up for less
speed and down for more) With the power involved, the airspeed response to
pitch changes is slower than in free gliding flight which will surprise the
uninitiated. The effect is exactly the same as takeoff in a powerful
airplane.

Bill Daniels

On Dec 10, 11:37 am, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Soarin Again wrote:
2. I was at a seminar where Bill Daniels was quite
strong about the concept that pilots should lower the
nose to speed up and raise the nose to slow down.
I have been told that at this event pilots were told
the opposite, being raise the nose to speed up and
lower the nose to slow down. Why does there still
appear to be such opposing opinions as to what is
the correct procedure during launch? How can both
procedures be correct?

Bill should have made it quite clear that he was talking about tension
controlled winches, of which there are very few in use (and none in the
US). For a conventional throttle controlled winch, once the transition
has been made to full climb, you can pull to speed up ("water skier"
effect) and push to slow down within limits, if the throttle setting is
simply wrong you must signal the winch driver accordingly.

I think this may have related to generally underpowered winches and
heavier gliders where pulling back will slow the glider and relaxing
back pressure will allow the speed to increase. With a powerful
winch, pulling back will certainly cause a speed increase. A light
glider like a 1-26 or a K-8 cannot overpower a similar winch and a
rather lighter touch is needed by the winch driver.

Launches from a nose hook like 1-34's and HP-14's will result in
porpoising due to elevator stall. I think the highest I ever launched
a 1-34 was 900agl and an HP-14 about 1100agl. Both types were
porpoising wildly despite steady power reductions. The only 1-26 I've
ever winch launched had a CG hook and got 1400 and 1500 agl on the two
launches.

Frank Whiteley

It's always interesting to see how the ras chatter builds....

The incident with the 1-26 was an over-reaction by the local medical
services on an otherwise boring day municipally. Pilot was out of 1st
aid within an hour. An overspeed situation poorly handled by the
pilot.

Echoing Bill, each winch is different....regretably. As is each
club's operation...regretably. Each airports facilities are
different. The lack of detailed modern SSA standards in the USA must
be fixed.

A little dirty laundry is purposely shown in the video, due to my
belief we here in the USA need to "catch-up". This opinion infuses my
two reports on the Winchfest at: http://www.socalsoaring.com/newslett...sepoct2007.pdf

No time for witch hunt, but this is time for a little soul searching,
gents. Winch activity in the USA is on a rapid growth curve. We must
do better in 2008. THAT is the bell I'm ringing!

I look forward to a rousing discussion forward at this years SSA
Convention.

LT














On Dec 10, 12:16 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message

...





Soarin Again wrote:
2. I was at a seminar where Bill Daniels was quite
strong about the concept that pilots should lower the
nose to speed up and raise the nose to slow down.
I have been told that at this event pilots were told
the opposite, being raise the nose to speed up and
lower the nose to slow down. Why does there still
appear to be such opposing opinions as to what is
the correct procedure during launch? How can both
procedures be correct?

Bill should have made it quite clear that he was talking about tension
controlled winches, of which there are very few in use (and none in the
US). For a conventional throttle controlled winch, once the transition
has been made to full climb, you can pull to speed up ("water skier"
effect) and push to slow down within limits, if the throttle setting is
simply wrong you must signal the winch driver accordingly.

3. Pilots were told that while on winch launch they
are flying at zero angle of attack. Is this possible?

Not zero, but at a normal (i.e., not 45 degrees) positive AOA, ideally
that for best L/D. Hence the interest in AOA meters.

Marc

As for the story about the 1-26 pilot, I have spoken at length with people
who were in attendance at Twentynine Palms and they didn't relate this story
to me so I assume the event either didn't happen or is extremely
exaggerated.

The point I made about airspeed control is that most, if not all, all US
winches are underpowered and therefore tension limited. Raising the nose
will increase cable tension and reduce airspeed by pulling down the winch
engine RPM. I have never experienced airspeed increase with increased
backpressure. The math says that for airspeed to increase with increased
pitch ("water skier effect") the cable tension would have to be in excess of
the weak link strength - it ain't gonna happen.

What does happen is that the glider is still accelerating during the
rotation into the climb and some pilots (Mostly pilots with no airplane
experience.) will jump to the conclusion that there is a cause and effect -
i.e. since the nose is going up and the airspeed is increasing, there must
be a reverse airspeed/pitch relationship. In realilty, once stabilized in
the climb the airspeed/pitch ralationship is normal. (Pitch up for less
speed and down for more) With the power involved, the airspeed response to
pitch changes is slower than in free gliding flight which will surprise the
uninitiated. The effect is exactly the same as takeoff in a powerful
airplane.

Bill Daniels- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -