Tweaking the throttle on approach

On Mar 9, 9:51 am, "Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net
wrote:
chris wrote:
I just remembered something you might be surprised about.. Our
national airline purchased 16 or so Beech 1900D turboprop airliners a
year or two back. They ordered them WITHOUT autopilot! They have to
be hand flown the whole time. Rationale was apparently that it keeps
the pilots sharp by making them fly the whole time.. Hell, even the
a/ c I fly has autopilot!!!!

In the late 70's and early 80's when I worked for Scheduled Skyways (Not as
a pilot) the Metroliners they flew didn't have autopilots. I asked the chief
pilot who had just been involved in buying another 2 or 3 planes why they
didn't have autopilots in them. His answer, "We're already paying for two
pilots why should we pay for a third?"

Nice!

It still surprises me that moving a lever to extend or retract gear makes an
aircraft complex. An autopilot or GPS is a lot more complex than a gear
lever.

Its called 'pilot workload'.

In a real aircraft, you must:
-Fly the Plane
-Operate The Aircraft Systems
-Keep track of your current location
-Communicate with ATC
-Keep Watch for Traffic
-Plan your future track (or reference your flightplan), this includes
making absolutely sure you remain clear of all restricted airspace.

All in a reasonably loud, chaotic setting, with absolutely no option
to 'pause'...

Your sim covers 1 and 2 well... 3 and 6 ok (The various ways that
simulators try and 'trick you up' navigation wise are very poor
approximations of the real situations that come up... and restricted
airspace is a non-issue). and 4 and 5 are jokes (pressing an
'acknowledge' button gives you absolutely no sense of how critical it
is to keep constant track of ATC's dealings with the other aircraft
around you... whose transmitters are 1960s vacuum tube technology and
who all have different accents/ways of talking and traffic scanning on
a monitor is nearly impossible)...

So basically, in your little flight simulator, you are dealing with
MAYBE half of the 'real-world' pilot workload... AND you have a pause
when you get overwhelmed...

Aircraft Systems (but not avionix) dictate an aircraft's complexity
simply because those are the aspects of flying that the pilot cannot
time-shift, cannot get away from, and who knows what else he'll need
to be doing at the time. The complexity of an aircraft has nothing to
do with its 'mean' level of pilot involvement, its the potential
'worse-case' level of pilot involvement (low on fuel, landing in the
dark at an unknown towered airport, for example) that dictates it
because there simply is no option for the pilot workload to exceed his
capabilities at any point during the flight- the results would be
fatal.

Of course, you would know this if you had ever actually sat in a
cockpit, instead of trying to tell us that we're incompetent because
your little simulation (no matter how accurate it is at covering what
it does) simply does not take into account the full range of
experiences and requirements placed on a pilot...

But I guess its my problem now because I'm bothering to respond.

On Mar 9, 1:33 pm, "EridanMan" wrote:
It still surprises me that moving a lever to extend or retract gear makes an
aircraft complex. An autopilot or GPS is a lot more complex than a gear
lever.

Its called 'pilot workload'.

In a real aircraft, you must:
-Fly the Plane
-Operate The Aircraft Systems
-Keep track of your current location
-Communicate with ATC
-Keep Watch for Traffic
-Plan your future track (or reference your flightplan), this includes
making absolutely sure you remain clear of all restricted airspace.

All in a reasonably loud, chaotic setting, with absolutely no option
to 'pause'...


I couldn't agree more!

I have been in situations where I desperately wished I could pause the
flight, one time it was because I was trying to work out where I was
over hostile and rugged terrain with no landmarks at all, while having
to fly around clouds, up valleys, not sure if my heading calculation
worked out when I had to divert was correct, which was worked out
using a map and protractor while flying through heavy turbulence,
trying to keep the wings level with my knees while working the heading
out, while dealing with an aircraft with absolutely no navaids and no
gps, a badly drifting DG, and no way to fly straight and level long
enough to reset it, flying over tiger country, and then I came to some
flat land I found I was just about right above an airfield I didn't
recognise that wasn't on the map, and having to scramble through my
map collection to find that I'd gone off the edge of my map and was
less than 1/4 mile from military airspace, all the while having to
look out for other aircraft, and fly my aircraft, the one with two
different wings that flies in circles unless you keep a heap of rudder
in the whole time...

chris writes:

Yep, but it just seems to take forever! I also find it a damn pain to
hand-fly the sim, preferring to set the autopilot.. IRL I don't have
any issues hand-flying..

Here again it may simply be an issue of sensations. In the sim you have
visuals and sound, and that's it. Depending on what part of real flying
appeals to you, this could make flights very boring.

I don't like to fly three-hour legs or anything like that in the sim. It gets
boring and there's not much to do. I don't know if I'd feel the same way in a
real aircraft. Then again, in a real aircraft, toilet breaks would probably
limit the length of legs more than anything else.

I just remembered something you might be surprised about.. Our
national airline purchased 16 or so Beech 1900D turboprop airliners a
year or two back. They ordered them WITHOUT autopilot! They have to
be hand flown the whole time. Rationale was apparently that it keeps
the pilots sharp by making them fly the whole time.

I guess they forget their history easily. The whole motivation for autopilots
to begin with was to reduce pilot fatigue and improve alertness. Flying by
hand is very tiring. After a few hours of flying by hand, one becomes quite
tired, and less and less attentive. Mistakes are made, important information
is overlooked, and sometimes problems ensue.

Flying by hand can keep the pilot alert if there is variety to it. Few
fighter pilots would want to fly on autopilot most of the time (although
fighters often have autopilots, too). But if you are just flying in a
straight line for 300 miles at a time, your alertness is not enhanced by
constantly holding the yoke. That's true for aircraft, cars, motorcycles,
boats, bicycles, and everything else.

It is a right royal pain in the ass!!! Anyway, you don't need
crossfeed for a single

If you have to switch tanks in flight, there are clearly still improvements to
be made. Remember John Denver.

Might depend on the twin - the fuel systems are as varied as the
aircraft. And on things like Twin Comanches and Aztecs I believe the
fuel selectors are between the pilots seats on the floor where you
can't see them at night!!!

Perhaps so. I only know the arrangement in the Baron.

It sure is! If I have any chance to fill er up I will.. But I always
have to keep an eye on weight - I fly out of some short runways and
weight is always a concern, especially on Pipers which aren't happy to
fly until they're good and ready...

I thought Piper Cubs in particular had a reputation for flying almost
immediately. The simulated Cub does, but I don't know how accurate that is.

When you apply the flaps you need to push forward to counteract the
climb, if that's what it's trying to do. Some planes are worse than
others. If you bang flaps down on a 172 you better be ready to
push!!! And if you have lots of flap down and you try to do a go-
around you better have a strong set of arms on you, I understand
bigger Cessnas are even worse...

Because ... ?

Probably not, but you might want to chop the power to idle when you
flare, or it will probably float for miles!

True, but runways are often so long that I don't worry much about it. If I'm
landing on a truly short runway, I try to get down more quickly. It seems
that most runways are generously proportioned with respect to GA aircraft.

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Gig 601XL Builder writes:

In the late 70's and early 80's when I worked for Scheduled Skyways (Not as
a pilot) the Metroliners they flew didn't have autopilots. I asked the chief
pilot who had just been involved in buying another 2 or 3 planes why they
didn't have autopilots in them. His answer, "We're already paying for two
pilots why should we pay for a third?"

The third one doesn't get tired or make mistakes, and it uses less fuel.

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Alexey Goldin writes:

When you watch martial arts movie or play one of those "martial arts
games", quite a lot blocks, punches and kicks look quite slow and
easy, easily repeatable. Try to repeat it in dark alley against three
blokes carrying broken bottles, bicycle chains and arbitrary sticks
without real practice or even while safely sparring with instructor
or another student and it suddenly looks very different.

Martial arts are virtually useless in real street fights. But that isn't
relevant here. It's like saying that flying a Cessna in simulation isn't the
same as flying a fighter in real life, which is obviously true.

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Kev writes:

Which makes sense... I mean heck, sometimes I think that automobile
drivers should be certified for manual transmissions.

Some jurisdictions require this, but there seems to be little or no
enforcement. In my home State, as I recall, most people took the exam in an
automatic, and there was a box in which one could restrict them to automatics
only on the license, but this box was never used, leaving them able to drive
manual transmissions as well, even with zero experience.

But learning to drive with a manual transmission only takes a day. I suspect
that learning to move a gear lever or a flaps lever is comparable.


I see way too many drivers who are very scary to be behind, when starting on hills
with their new 5-speed ;-)

Yes, but much depends on how often you are in that situation.

I'm sure there are many exceptional situations in which the average pilot
would be hopelessly and dangerously at a loss, but if those situations don't
often arise, it probably won't ever be a problem.

It goes without saying that most pilots, like most drivers, will handle the
most common situations well, and will handle the exceptional situations
poorly. Having a license doesn't change this.

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EridanMan writes:

Its called 'pilot workload'.

In a real aircraft, you must:
-Fly the Plane
-Operate The Aircraft Systems
-Keep track of your current location
-Communicate with ATC
-Keep Watch for Traffic
-Plan your future track (or reference your flightplan), this includes
making absolutely sure you remain clear of all restricted airspace.

All in a reasonably loud, chaotic setting, with absolutely no option
to 'pause'...

Sounds doable, with a bit of practice. I don't have much trouble with it in
the sim.

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chris writes:

I have been in situations where I desperately wished I could pause the
flight, one time it was because I was trying to work out where I was
over hostile and rugged terrain with no landmarks at all, while having
to fly around clouds, up valleys, not sure if my heading calculation
worked out when I had to divert was correct, which was worked out
using a map and protractor while flying through heavy turbulence,
trying to keep the wings level with my knees while working the heading
out, while dealing with an aircraft with absolutely no navaids and no
gps, a badly drifting DG, and no way to fly straight and level long
enough to reset it, flying over tiger country, and then I came to some
flat land I found I was just about right above an airfield I didn't
recognise that wasn't on the map, and having to scramble through my
map collection to find that I'd gone off the edge of my map and was
less than 1/4 mile from military airspace, all the while having to
look out for other aircraft, and fly my aircraft, the one with two
different wings that flies in circles unless you keep a heap of rudder
in the whole time...

This is why God invented autopilots, copilots, and advanced instrumentation.

It sounds like you drifted into this situation by not anticipating and
planning beforehand. Necessary tasks that are deferred just tend to pile up,
and then they all have to be done at once.

There will always be some type of situation that is too complex to handle, no
matter how much training or practice you have. It is therefore necessary to
avoid such a situation. It traps even the best and most experienced of
pilots.

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Nomen Nescio writes:

Your's flew you into the ground a couple of days ago.
I'd call that a "mistake".

Pilot error.

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