Spin ?

http://www.jumpingpixels.com/russianjetcrash.html

Not a glider but shows what can happen without enough height to recover.

Mal wrote:
http://www.jumpingpixels.com/russianjetcrash.html

Not a glider but shows what can happen without enough height to recover.


It shows why exhibition pilots never work toward the crowd at air shows
in the US, and haven't for many years. One of those GOOD rules from the FAA.

http://www.jumpingpixels.com/russianjetcrash.html

Do you suppose Ukraine will change their rules now?


Jack

Jack wrote:
Mal wrote:
http://www.jumpingpixels.com/russianjetcrash.html

Not a glider but shows what can happen without enough height to recover.


It shows why exhibition pilots never work toward the crowd at air shows
in the US, and haven't for many years. One of those GOOD rules from the
FAA.

I have been at two airshows in the past several years where the jets
turned towards the crowd (in the USA). Scary.


http://www.jumpingpixels.com/russianjetcrash.html

Do you suppose Ukraine will change their rules now?


Jack

Greg Arnold wrote:

I have been at two airshows in the past several years where the jets
turned towards the crowd (in the USA). Scary.

What performers? What shows?


Jack

Jack wrote:
Greg Arnold wrote:

I have been at two airshows in the past several years where the jets
turned towards the crowd (in the USA). Scary.

What performers? What shows?

Edwards about 3 years ago, and Pt. Mugu this past fall. Don't remember
what type of jet at Edwards. At Mugu it was either an F-16 or F-18,
doing a high G turn towards the crowd.



Jack

Greg Arnold wrote:

Edwards about 3 years ago, and Pt. Mugu this past fall. Don't remember
what type of jet at Edwards. At Mugu it was either an F-16 or F-18,
doing a high G turn towards the crowd.

Interesting. I think the Blues and the Thunderbirds have that as a well
standardized no-no. I'm surprised that the FAA and various responsible
organizations have not enforced such restrictions as thoroughly as I
expected.

Every venue must have its own challenges WRT airspace and topography,
but still, we should know better by now.


Jack

At a show just today, the announcer specifically mentioned the fact that the
performers would not work over or toward the crowd. So I watched the
directions of their flights. I saw some non-military performers turn toward
the crowd. In my estimation if they had lost control at about 200-300' AGL
their inertia alone would have carried them into the crowd.

"Jack" wrote in message
. com...

It shows why exhibition pilots never work toward the crowd at air shows
in the US, and haven't for many years. One of those GOOD rules from the
FAA.

Having just read the other posts about the restrictions being only on
aerobatic maneuvers, I'll retract my statement. The only time the performer
was pointing toward the crowd was during level or nearly-level flight.

"Roger Worden" wrote in message
. com...
At a show just today, the announcer specifically mentioned the fact that
the
performers would not work over or toward the crowd. So I watched the
directions of their flights. I saw some non-military performers turn
toward
the crowd. In my estimation if they had lost control at about 200-300' AGL
their inertia alone would have carried them into the crowd.

"Jack" wrote in message
. com...

It shows why exhibition pilots never work toward the crowd at air shows
in the US, and haven't for many years. One of those GOOD rules from the
FAA.

Civilian performers are not allowed to point their
energy vector toward the crowd during an aerobatic
maneuver. For the purposes of an airshow waiver, aerobatic
flight is defined as +/-90 pitch or roll (paraphrased-there
are exceptions). Aerobatic maneuvers which may point
the nose of the aircraft toward the crowd, but which
are at, or nearly at, stall speed (hammerheads, spins,
etc) are allowed (again, condensed from about 10 pages
of definitions). Non-aerobatic turns toward the crowd
are permitted (how else would we stay in the box with
an off-crowd wind).

North American military jet teams, specifically the
USAF Thunderbirds, USN Blue Angels and RCAF Snowbirds,
are exempt from these requirements. ICAS (International
Council of Airshows) has been pounding on the military
to eliminate energy toward the crowd maneuvers, with
some success. They are no longer performing the 'point-at-the-cro
wd-and-miss' type maneuvers. The high-G 360 is still
pretty scary to watch. We're working to get that one
eliminated, as well as the reverse Cuban (which has
probably killed more jet jocks than enemy fire).

We all realize that if there is ever an accident like
Ukraine or Ramstein in the US, we're all out of the
airshow biz permanently. Despite sensationalist news
reports to the contrary, the last US airshow spectator
fatality was about 60 years ago.

All that having been said, the rules have been completely
rewritten, effective January 1, 2006. (Since these
are conditions of waiver, not regulations, they do
not have to go through the normal rulemaking process.)
Unfortunately, the FAA hasn't gotten around to printing
them yet.

Good news is the new FAA National Airshow Coordinator
is a former airshow pilot. He's been working hard
with the likes of Ralph Royce to incorporate many of
the changes we've been asking for. He seems like a
real 'heads-up' guy. Of course it could be years before
all this information filters down to the local level.
Should be an interesting summer...

Bob C
Silent Wings Airshows



At 01:30 03 April 2006, Greg Arnold wrote:
Jack wrote:
From a knowledgeable poster on another list...

'Aerobatic maneuvering towards the crowd/airshow line
is prohibited.
(for example rolls, loops, pullups, cuban eights,
spins, any
recoveries,etc.) To do so, a waiver letter from the
FAA must be
obtained where each maneuver is described and analyzed
for scatter
field effects from a loss of a aircraft part/hardware/external
store, etc., and also from debris from a ground contact.
Very few
of these [waivers] are available to civilian display
pilots. 360
degree level turns are not considered aerobatic maneuvers,
no
matter how high the G forces during the sustained
turn.

'This has been in effect for several years now; 8
years as best as
I can recall.'

Great. One of these days, a fighter turning toward
the crowd (but a
level turn, so not acrobatic!) will take out half the
crowd at an airshow.