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#12
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John and Gary
I answered this poll under then assumption that the best exit point be used, not the last. I am in favour of the best, as is the case for all turnpoints thereafter, why throw in another rule of last exit or only from half of cylinder, thats not what was asked in the poll. Bumping prestart gaggles should not be the determining factor on start location. First that assumes that the gaggles (now people are assuimg there are more than one which is good) are on course line and that they are not typical prestart gaggles where people are going in and out of the thermal trying to stay below max start height. I would not chance bumping a typical prestart gaggle and besides we have this on course all the time. Keep it simple and take the best exit point. Dale Kramer K1 Gary Ittner wrote in message ... Mark Navarre wrote: Then the poll question needs to be rewritten with clarity and completeness in mind. Here again is the complete text of question 16 from the poll: 16. ?Start Anywhere? Cylinder Present rules for start cylinders measure start time from your exit point, but measure distance from the point on the cylinder?s perimeter closest to your first turnpoint. 16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from your cylinder exit point? ___ Yes ___ No Mark, it is unclear to me exactly what you find unclear about the above question. |
#13
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John
I think the poll is very clear that the intent would be to allow the most favorable exit point. The rules as they are now allow a pilot to take his most favorable exit point as his start and the poll did not mention 'last' exit (or any other wierd modification). Without the mention of the word 'last' the poll must then be taken as a modification of current rules which gives the pilot his 'best'. I can see how we think we are voting one thing but the next year the rules are not what we voted on, I guess you need to be on the rules committee to really know what people mean. If only you would let ALL SSA members be eligible for the position. Dale Kramer K1 (John Cochrane) wrote in message . com... A slight clarification to Gary's post: As I read it, the proposal in the survey is NOT the same as the "area start" that the RC considered and wisely rejected. The area start let you start from any point IN the start circle. This one lets you start at any cylinder EXIT point. The reason for the difference is exactly to separate people who have started from the pre-start gaggle. (Well, at least as much as in current rules. Often the prestart gaggle is outside the gate, so people start and return to bump the gaggle.) John Cochrane .... 16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from your cylinder exit point? ___ Yes ___ No |
#14
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Dale Kramer wrote:
John and Gary I answered this poll under then assumption that the best exit point be used, not the last. I am in favour of the best, as is the case for all turnpoints thereafter, why throw in another rule of last exit or only from half of cylinder, thats not what was asked in the poll. Bumping prestart gaggles should not be the determining factor on start location. First that assumes that the gaggles (now people are assuimg there are more than one which is good) are on course line and that they are not typical prestart gaggles where people are going in and out of the thermal trying to stay below max start height. I would not chance bumping a typical prestart gaggle and besides we have this on course all the time. Keep it simple and take the best exit point. In my limited experience, out West it's true, is that if you're starting through the top it's a good well defined thermal that it has a beneficial climb rate. As such, you should soon be over the top well enough that a on-course glide won't take you through the start cylinder again. One case I can think this might not apply is with a strong headwind. In that case, you could be an additional mile down-wind (and track) from the start. In an effort to spread out the starts from the ideal point on a circle, I think this is a reasonable way to go. On the other issue of 1 mile TP's I can only think that's going to reproduce the start zone shenanigans (Respect to Netscape, that was in the spell-checker!) at each TP. Trying to bump gaggles in order to go deeper/quicker into the TP. Let's get everyone out of the TP ASAP so they can make indicidual decisions again. Chris |
#15
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Dale Kramer wrote:
I think the poll is very clear that the intent would be to allow the most favorable exit point. The poll says no such thing. Question 16 very clearly says "exit point", not "most favorable exit point" or "last exit point". The rules as they are now allow a pilot to take his most favorable exit point as his start and the poll did not mention 'last' exit (or any other wierd modification). Without the mention of the word 'last' the poll must then be taken as a modification of current rules which gives the pilot his 'best'. Question 16 is intended to ask about distance measurement on the first leg, and I chose the precise wording very deliberately. The issue of "best" versus "last" exit is a separate and complex issue, and one that applies to any gps start gate design. I can see how we think we are voting one thing but the next year the rules are not what we voted on The Pilot Opinion Poll is NOT a referendum wherein the exact text of a proposed rule is presented, and majority approval automatically enacts it as law. The Pilot Opinion Poll is precisely what the name implies: an opinion poll. It is one among many avenues by which SSA competition pilots may communicate their opinions on rules issues to the SSA Rules Committee. The Committee considers the poll results, along with many other factors, when proposing contest rules changes to the SSA Board of Directors. The Board retains final authority over SSA contest rules, and has occasionally rejected or amended the rule changes proposed by the Rules Committee. Gary Ittner P7 SSA Contest Rules Committee 16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from your cylinder exit point? ___ Yes ___ No |
#16
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My point is simply that poll questions seem to be written on too
general a basis. Intentionally or not, the committee has asked a question that can't be answered without other (perhaps more controversial aspects) questions brought forward. I understand that the results of the poll do not mean we have changed a rule. I believe the committee does use the results to justify rule changes if and when they agree with what the committee finally decides. If, next year, we have a rule that allows 'last exit' distance measurement in the start cylinder, I for one hope never to hear that the members have given their opinion on the rule. Dale Kramer K1 Gary Ittner wrote in message ... Dale Kramer wrote: I think the poll is very clear that the intent would be to allow the most favorable exit point. The poll says no such thing. Question 16 very clearly says "exit point", not "most favorable exit point" or "last exit point". The rules as they are now allow a pilot to take his most favorable exit point as his start and the poll did not mention 'last' exit (or any other wierd modification). Without the mention of the word 'last' the poll must then be taken as a modification of current rules which gives the pilot his 'best'. Question 16 is intended to ask about distance measurement on the first leg, and I chose the precise wording very deliberately. The issue of "best" versus "last" exit is a separate and complex issue, and one that applies to any gps start gate design. I can see how we think we are voting one thing but the next year the rules are not what we voted on The Pilot Opinion Poll is NOT a referendum wherein the exact text of a proposed rule is presented, and majority approval automatically enacts it as law. The Pilot Opinion Poll is precisely what the name implies: an opinion poll. It is one among many avenues by which SSA competition pilots may communicate their opinions on rules issues to the SSA Rules Committee. The Committee considers the poll results, along with many other factors, when proposing contest rules changes to the SSA Board of Directors. The Board retains final authority over SSA contest rules, and has occasionally rejected or amended the rule changes proposed by the Rules Committee. Gary Ittner P7 SSA Contest Rules Committee 16.1 Would you prefer that both start time and distance be measured from your cylinder exit point? ___ Yes ___ No |
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