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Inflight Emergency -- Definition



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 24th 04, 02:37 AM
Chris OCallaghan
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Default Inflight Emergency -- Definition

Thought I'd break this subject out of the Landout Laws thread. I have
no opinions to share on this topic, but would like to read yours as
regards off airport landings during cross country flight. However, I
suggest review the FARs and AIM for the FAA's definition of
emergencies, pilot responsibilities, and emergency operations. Most of
this is available online. Search Google for "Airman's Information
Manual Emergency Operations."

I'll look forward to your informed comments.

This has the potential to be a very short thread! ;-)
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  #2  
Old February 24th 04, 07:31 PM
303pilot
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Airman's info manual didn't have much to offer.
FARs have:
91.119 Minimum safe altitudes; general
a.. Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an
aircraft below the following altitudes;
b.. (a) ·Anywhere. ·An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an
emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the
surface.
§91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is
the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

(b) In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in
command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to
meet that emergency.

Those are the only things that seem remotely on point (in a quick check
during lunch). Neither suggests any different treatment of ships w/onboard
power vs. ships using external power (sailplanes).

I wasn't able to find any info on what the landowners legal responsibilities
are in the case of an emergency landing that is not also an accident
investigation site.

"Chris OCallaghan" wrote in message
om...
Thought I'd break this subject out of the Landout Laws thread. I have
no opinions to share on this topic, but would like to read yours as
regards off airport landings during cross country flight. However, I
suggest review the FARs and AIM for the FAA's definition of
emergencies, pilot responsibilities, and emergency operations. Most of
this is available online. Search Google for "Airman's Information
Manual Emergency Operations."

I'll look forward to your informed comments.

This has the potential to be a very short thread! ;-)



  #3  
Old February 24th 04, 10:07 PM
Ivan Kahn
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Default


"Chris OCallaghan" wrote in message
om...
Thought I'd break this subject out of the Landout Laws thread. I have
no opinions to share on this topic, but would like to read yours as
regards off airport landings during cross country flight. However, I
suggest review the FARs and AIM for the FAA's definition of
emergencies, pilot responsibilities, and emergency operations. Most of
this is available online. Search Google for "Airman's Information
Manual Emergency Operations."

I'll look forward to your informed comments.

This has the potential to be a very short thread! ;-)


Might want to get a copy of the AIM and do a little reading. Here is an
excerpt from Chapter 6:

a. An emergency can be either a distress or urgency condition as defined
in the Pilot/Controller Glossary. Pilots do not hesitate to declare an
emergency when they are faced with distress conditions such as fire,
mechanical failure, or structural damage. However, some are reluctant to
report an urgency condition when they encounter situations which may not be
immediately perilous, but are potentially catastrophic. An aircraft is in at
least an urgency condition the moment the pilot becomes doubtful about
position, fuel endurance, weather, or any other condition that could
adversely affect flight safety. This is the time to ask for help, not after
the situation has developed into a distress condition.

b. Pilots who become apprehensive for their safety for any reason should
request assistance immediately. Ready and willing help is available in the
form of radio, radar, direction finding stations and other aircraft. Delay
has caused accidents and cost lives. Safety is not a luxury! Take action!

Ivan




  #4  
Old February 26th 04, 02:15 PM
Chris OCallaghan
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The section implies a requirement (tacit, at least) to communicate a
distress or urgency, since both these situations indicate an uncertain
outcome. I've never heard a broadcast of mayday or pan, pan, pan prior
to an out landing (though I don't listen to 121.5). Do sailplane
pilots typcially declare an emergency before an outlanding? So many
pilots indicated in the farmer relations thread that an outlanding is
an emergency, I'm confused as to whether we should be declaring them.
I can't recall an outlanding (I've had roughly 75) where I didn't have
time to broadcast a pan, pan, pan. Of course, I never have. From time
to time I call other pilots to inform them of an outlanding (mine or
someone else's). But this has alway been a matter of convenience.

I'm looking for some validation here from those convinced that an
outlanding is an emergency. Do you truly treat it as an emergency in
as much as the AIM and FARs detail emergency operations? Or is this an
emergency of convenience, living in the gray of the regs so long as it
suits the pilot's need to retrieve his glider?
  #5  
Old February 26th 04, 03:06 PM
Ivan Kahn
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Here's a thought - how do you think the FAA would view a pilot who routinely
puts himself into a position in which he must delcare an emergency? A
landout is not an emergency, in my view it is just a landing at a location
other than an established airport.

Ivan


"Chris OCallaghan" wrote in message
om...
The section implies a requirement (tacit, at least) to communicate a
distress or urgency, since both these situations indicate an uncertain
outcome. I've never heard a broadcast of mayday or pan, pan, pan prior
to an out landing (though I don't listen to 121.5). Do sailplane
pilots typcially declare an emergency before an outlanding? So many
pilots indicated in the farmer relations thread that an outlanding is
an emergency, I'm confused as to whether we should be declaring them.
I can't recall an outlanding (I've had roughly 75) where I didn't have
time to broadcast a pan, pan, pan. Of course, I never have. From time
to time I call other pilots to inform them of an outlanding (mine or
someone else's). But this has alway been a matter of convenience.

I'm looking for some validation here from those convinced that an
outlanding is an emergency. Do you truly treat it as an emergency in
as much as the AIM and FARs detail emergency operations? Or is this an
emergency of convenience, living in the gray of the regs so long as it
suits the pilot's need to retrieve his glider?



  #6  
Old February 26th 04, 04:35 PM
Ivan Kahn
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Todd, I think we are beginning to mix the question of is an outlanding an
emergency an when should an emergency be declared. Please see below:

"Todd Pattist" wrote in message
...
"Ivan Kahn" wrote:

Here's a thought - how do you think the FAA would view a pilot who

routinely
puts himself into a position in which he must declare an emergency?


I don't see that the FAA's concerns about the pilot affect
whether an outlanding justifies deviation from an FAR.


The point I am trying to make is that IF you view an outlanding as an
emergency, then the FAA will rightly take a dim view of any pilot who
routinely put themselves into such a position. "Declaring" an emergency is
certainly recommended if you need to deviate from the FARs. .


A
landout is not an emergency, in my view it is just a landing at a

location
other than an established airport.


You are ignoring the most important facet of the question -
the pilot's intent.


Again, see above - if every outlanding is by definition an emergency the FAA
will take a dim view of that.

Assume a small dirt field inside the edge of some FAR
prohibited or controlled airspace. If you take off with the
intent of entering that airspace and landing in that field,
you are violating an FAR and can lose your license. If you
did not intend to land there, but do so because there is no
lift, you were justified in deviating from the applicable
FAR to the extent required for safety under FAR 91.3.



In your example, declaring an emergency in this case is needed because you
need to deviate from an FAR - but not because you are simply landing out.



  #7  
Old February 26th 04, 06:01 PM
Ivan Kahn
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Default



"Todd Pattist" wrote in message
...
"Ivan Kahn" wrote:

Todd, I think we are beginning to mix the question of is an outlanding an
emergency an when should an emergency be declared. Please see below:


I don't see any mixture, but I'll try to make my points
clear.

1) An outlanding required by lack of lift is legally an
"emergency" under the FAR's which justifies deviating from
any FAR to the extent required by safety.


I appeciate your view, but I disagree, an outlanding is not an emergency. If
you find that you need to deviate from an FAR, no matter what the reason,
that would be an emergency.


2) An intentional landing in the same field, where not
required by lack of lift is not an "emergency" under the
FAR's and does not justify deviating from the FAR's.


Agree, since one could choose not to land,


3) There's no requirement to "declare" an emergency, but you
should communicate whenever you think it will improve
safety.


To the extend that we consider the words delcare and communicate to mean the
same thing, I agree. But one can certainly have an emergency without
communicating, which is what I meant when I used the word declare. Sorry for
that confusion.


The point I am trying to make is that IF you view an outlanding as an
emergency,


I don't think your attitude is relevant.


That was not atittiude, your original reponse seemed to me to miss the point
I was trying to make and so I was trying to highlight the operative word
which is that if, by defination an outlanding is viewed as an emergency that
some undersible FAA views might then follow.


then the FAA will rightly take a dim view of any pilot who
routinely put themselves into such a position.


If I understand you, you are advocating not calling it an
"emergency" so the FAA will look on us kindly? IMHO, if the
FAA objected to outlandings, they would do so no matter what
the pilot thought about it.


I do not believe it to be an emergency to begin with. My statement is that
if it were then the FAA would take a dim view of outlanding as a standard
practice since glider pilots would be engaging unsafe practices.


"Declaring" an emergency is
certainly recommended if you need to deviate from the FARs. .


I see no advantage to making any kind of formal declaration,
except where needed to obtain some assistance. Even then,
I'd probably just advise of my problem and ask for the
assistance I wanted.


Assuming you are not requesting assistance, then I agree but by declaring
you will alert others to your problem and also have it on record should the
FAA question you later/


Again, see above - if every outlanding is by definition an emergency the

FAA
will take a dim view of that.


Baloney. They don't care what we *think* it is - they care
what it really is.





In your example, declaring an emergency in this case is needed because

you
need to deviate from an FAR - but not because you are simply landing out.


So whether it's an "emergency" depends on whether you need
to break a rule? That's ridiculous. You get to break the
rule *because* it's an emergency, not because you made some
radio announcement or because you wanted to beak the rule.
Whether a pilot is in an emergency condition does not depend
on his radio declaration.


I think you are trying to read a lot more into what I have said then exists.
The beginning and ending of my view is that an outlanding is not, by
definition, an emergency.

Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)



  #8  
Old February 28th 04, 04:42 AM
Bruce Hoult
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In article ,
"Ivan Kahn" wrote:

then the FAA will rightly take a dim view of any pilot who
routinely put themselves into such a position.


If I understand you, you are advocating not calling it an
"emergency" so the FAA will look on us kindly? IMHO, if the
FAA objected to outlandings, they would do so no matter what
the pilot thought about it.


I do not believe it to be an emergency to begin with. My statement is that
if it were then the FAA would take a dim view of outlanding as a standard
practice since glider pilots would be engaging unsafe practices.


My take on it:

- an outlanding is not in itself an emergency, it is a
routine (though undesired in any particular instance)
fact of flying anything with an unreliable source of
energy.

- being denied the use of a suitable landing area *would*
create an emergency.
  #9  
Old March 1st 04, 03:34 PM
Bert Willing
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Under German law, this legal right is straightforward:

With a glider, the right do an outlanding is granted regardlelss who owns
the field. The owner of the field has no right whatsoever to prevent the
evacuation of the outlanded glider from his field.
The conterpart is that all damages are covered by the glider's insurance,
and that the pilot of the glider must communicate his name and the insurance
contract number/contacts to the owner of the field.

On the other hand, if you intend prior to take off that you will land in a
certain field, without authorization of both the owner of the field and
aviation authorities, you better forget about it.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Todd Pattist" a écrit dans le message de
...
Bruce Hoult wrote:

My take on it:
- being denied the use of a suitable landing area *would*
create an emergency.


I'm comfortable with this definition. Of course, I consider
a "suitable landing area" to be one that is known to be
landable and where I have the legal right to land. As a
consequence, I don't consider a landing at such a place to
be an "outlanding." If the necessity to land does not give
us the right to claim an "emergency," then I see no
justification for smashing up some poor farmer's crops no
matter how smooth his field is and no matter how safely we
can land on his young plants.
Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)



  #10  
Old March 1st 04, 05:35 PM
Bert Willing
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Well, the idea is the same in Germany. And for a sailplane on x-country the
necessity is supposed to be given.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Todd Pattist" a écrit dans le message de
...
"Bert Willing"
wrote:

Under German law, this legal right is straightforward:

But it is not so straightforward in the U.S. A pilot does
not have the right to use and potentially damage the
farmer's property unless he can claim necessity in order to
avoid potentially more significant loss of life or injury to
person or property. That risk to life and property is the
basis for the right in the U.S. to make an outlanding.
Todd Pattist - "WH" Ventus C
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)



 




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