Soft-field landing in C172

"Magnus" wrote in message
...
Ok, makes sense. I've landed on some extremely sluschy surfaces back in
sweden in the pawnee and at one point we were taking off (2100' runway)
and half way on the takeoff roll I hit a massive pool of water that
wasn't visible in the grass. Lost me 20 kts of airspeed easily.
Fortunately I braked and the glider disconnected and we were fine.
After that I did tell them that we'd had enough for the day though, and
my poor plane was covered in grass and mud.

Glider pilots can be very persistent when they've taken the time to
come out and assemble their planes :-)

As a former LS6b and PIK20b driver, you bet we are! Heck, you guys have
engines... we expect you to get it up no matter what if the weather is
soarable. :-))

Bill

"William W. Plummer" wrote in message
news:hQB8c.6087$JO3.12218@attbi_s04...
Gliders typically land on turf strips. Talk with the operators and look
at
their tire sizes, etc. There are FAA documents that spec out requirements
for an "official" landing strip. One caution: gopher holes. They are
hard
to see while landing and can give the plane a nasty bump.

Actually I've found glider tires and undercarriages to be marginal in tough
turf situations. They are typically lighter but only sit on one main tire.
Concentrates the weight but it does allow you to more easily miss soft
spots. A high performance glider at full gross with water in the wings is
real marginal on soft turf - worse than your typical land plane. Any glider
with retracts has minimally sized tires (and typically lousy brakes). And
in the end, if you land but get stuck, you can disassemble.

Looking at gliders makes logical sense but I think you'll find them
optimized for things other than soft field ops.

It is the discharge air from the propeller providing airflow over the
horizontal stabilizer/elevator that keeps the nosewheel out of the muck.
Remove that airflow by going to idle and you are complicating your life.

Bob Gardner

"Magnus" wrote in message
...
Just curious how you guys perform this maneuver. From what I've been
taught you should flare with a little power still in to soften the
touchdown, and then keep rolling to avoid digging yourself into the
runway surface.

I just think that it should be possible to land anyway, without any
power like you normally land. Just keep the plane airborne as long as
possible and keep the nosewheel up as long as you can. Keeping power in
just eats up a lot of runway it seems.

I mean, how often do you happen to find a rough and long field.
Ususally if a soft-field landing is required, it's a pretty short field
too out in the bush somewhere.

Approach like a short-field and flare as long as possible to soften the
touchdown would be my way of doing it.

Magnus wrote:

Just curious how you guys perform this maneuver. From what I've been
taught you should flare with a little power still in to soften the
touchdown, and then keep rolling to avoid digging yourself into the
runway surface.

That's the way to do it.

I just think that it should be possible to land anyway, without any
power like you normally land. Just keep the plane airborne as long as
possible and keep the nosewheel up as long as you can. Keeping power in
just eats up a lot of runway it seems.

Keeping the plane airborne as long as possible will almost certainly result
in a hard landing when the plane stalls. You want to get the main gear down
while you still have control authority. You will not be able to keep the nose
wheel up without airflow over the elevator, so you'll need to get a bit of
power in just before touchdown.

I mean, how often do you happen to find a rough and long field.
Ususally if a soft-field landing is required, it's a pretty short field
too out in the bush somewhere.

Book ground roll for a 160hp 172 is 890' for takeoff and 540' for landing.
You'll need at least twice that for a muddy takeoff. If you're trying to
get into a soft field and don't have enough room to carry some power during
the landing, you're going to have to cart the plane out with a truck.

Approach like a short-field and flare as long as possible to soften the
touchdown would be my way of doing it.

That's one way to start the process of turning the plane into a Texas Taildragger,
I guess. I'd prefer to *cut* the nosegear off, myself.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...

The increased power is not needed to soften the touchdown. It is needed to
keep the airplane rolling once it has touched down. You only use it on very
soft surfaces, such as mud or snow. You can land very softly in a Cessna 172
with no power and full flaps.


I agree. If the field is truly soft, adding power at touchdown
(with the yoke all the way back in your lap) will increase airflow
over the elevator and allow you to keep the weight off of the
nosewheel. This keeps the nosewheel from digging into the soft
surface.

I've flown out of some fairly soft backcountry strips in 172s (and
my Cherokee) and the yoke goes all the way back at touchdown along
with some power and pretty much stays that way until I've parked.
It's not unusual to need 1500 rpm or more to keep the plane moving on
a soft surface.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:c0F8c.7740$JO3.14266@attbi_s04...
It is the discharge air from the propeller providing airflow over the
horizontal stabilizer/elevator that keeps the nosewheel out of the muck.
Remove that airflow by going to idle and you are complicating your life.

Bob Gardner

Better yet, get rid of the nose wheel.



"Magnus" wrote in message
...
Just curious how you guys perform this maneuver. From what I've been
taught you should flare with a little power still in to soften the
touchdown, and then keep rolling to avoid digging yourself into the
runway surface.

I just think that it should be possible to land anyway, without any
power like you normally land. Just keep the plane airborne as long as
possible and keep the nosewheel up as long as you can. Keeping power in
just eats up a lot of runway it seems.

I mean, how often do you happen to find a rough and long field.
Ususally if a soft-field landing is required, it's a pretty short field
too out in the bush somewhere.

Approach like a short-field and flare as long as possible to soften the
touchdown would be my way of doing it.

Dave Stadt wrote:

Better yet, get rid of the nose wheel.

Easily done if you don't keep it out of the mud.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that would
not yield to the tongue.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Dave Stadt wrote:

Better yet, get rid of the nose wheel.

Easily done if you don't keep it out of the mud.

George Patterson
Battle, n; A method of untying with the teeth a political knot that
would
not yield to the tongue.

That also solves the problem of running off the end of the runway.

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


Dave Stadt wrote:

Better yet, get rid of the nose wheel.

Easily done if you don't keep it out of the mud.

:-)

I think the nosewheel legs are stronger than some people
who manage to break them would illustrate. One of the
students at the flight school where I learnt to fly managed
to leave the runway onto the grass at full power. Still at
full power he braked hard, dug the nosewheel in and
flipped the plane over. The nosewheel leg remained firmly
attached but was now pointing upwards.

This was a 150.

Paul

On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 23:11:07 -0500, Magnus
wrote:

Approach like a short-field and flare as long as possible to soften the
touchdown would be my way of doing it.

Go right ahead. The goal of the maneuver (as opposed to anything that
might happen in the real world) is to


Touches down softly with no drift, and with the airplane's
longitudinal axis aligned with the runway/landing path.

Maintains proper position of the flight controls and sufficient speed
to taxi on the soft surface.

Some find the application of power helpful for the touchdown part;
most find it helpful for the second.

When I teach it, since we're on a hard paved runway, I treat it as a
game: how long can you keep the nose up? I do a demonstration in which
I do a touch and go in which the nose never hits the ground I tell
them that's what they can do with finesse but they don't have to. So
far, they want to.