Cirrus crash midair

I'm retired now, John. Also for the investigation board.
At this moment I am involved with the selection of candidate pilots for our
Air Force as a part timer. Lots of good fun and even self motivating!

Loek

"John Ward" schreef in bericht
...
Hi Bug Dout,

Don't forget that Loek is a former F-16 pilot, and is still with his
country's accident investigation board......,

I'm a little hazy re the details of that last bit, but maybe Loek will
fill us in a bit.

Regards,
John Ward

"Bug Dout" wrote in message
...
"Loek" writes:

Mx, Dallas,

How on earth do you both know all about the cause of this tragic
accident??

They were making quite reasonable conjecture. Indeed the tow plane and
glider had the legal right of way. More important as to the cause of the
accident, who was going faster? Almost certainly the Cirrus. It's like
saying the Hudson River plane was hit by birds. Not so, the plane hit
the birds.
--
No one is completely unhappy at the failure of his best friend.
Groucho Marx

MX,

I'm not saying you are wrong, just that you can not know what really
happened except making "wild" guesses. For the same reason a bar in the
cockpit may have obstructed the view at the critical moment. (I don't know
the cirrus!) Or was their attention drawn away for some yet unknown reason.
Go ahead and find some other less logical reasons. There is lots of them.

The cases I had never were that easy as it looked. There was always
something "funny" part of the pyramid.

Got to go now. I'll be back tomorrow evening!

Cheers,

Loek

"Mxsmanic" schreef in bericht
...
Loek writes:

How on earth do you both know all about the cause of this tragic
accident??
(low time and failure to give right of way) Ah, you both were there,
right?

It's a simple process of elimination. VFR conditions, both pilots required
to
see and avoid, tow plane has the right of way. The Cirrus aircraft failed
to
see and avoid and failed to yield right of way. There aren't too many
other
possibilities. It's unlikely to be a mechanical failure or weather.

And as I've said, this has happened before, also with a Cirrus. Quite an
eerie
coincidence.

You may have read something I don't know about yet, but until you have
proven facts on paper there is no way you can give the Cirrus pilot the
blame / fault for this.

Sure you can. Unless you can think of some other possible explanation?

"John Ward" writes:

Don't forget that Loek is a former F-16 pilot

He's a current ass.

--
The funny thing about driving your car off a cliff, I bet you're
still hitting those brakes.
- Jack Handey

"Ian D" writes:

The conclusion as to why this was happening came down to
one word... arrogance. Being in the business of saving lives
these individuals felt that they could handle any situation.

Last summer a doctor I and many others knew stalled a C150 at Lake Tahoe
and killed himself. Arrogrance would be an understatement for that
fellow. And yes, a friend who knew him better than me said the doc
expressed that: he had cheated death on the operating table often, he
could cheat it in the air.

--
The long-lived books of tomorrow are concealed somewhere amongst the
so-far unpublished MSS of today.
- Philip Unwin

Hi Loek,

Got it!

Thanks for the info', mate. :-))

Just out of curiosity, what are your fighter pilots flying these days?

Regards,
John Ward

"Loek" wrote in message
...
I'm retired now, John. Also for the investigation board.
At this moment I am involved with the selection of candidate pilots for
our Air Force as a part timer. Lots of good fun and even self motivating!

Loek

"John Ward" schreef in bericht
...
Hi Bug Dout,

Don't forget that Loek is a former F-16 pilot, and is still with his
country's accident investigation board......,

I'm a little hazy re the details of that last bit, but maybe Loek will
fill us in a bit.

Regards,
John Ward

"Bug Dout" wrote in message
...
"Loek" writes:

Mx, Dallas,

How on earth do you both know all about the cause of this tragic
accident??

They were making quite reasonable conjecture. Indeed the tow plane and
glider had the legal right of way. More important as to the cause of the
accident, who was going faster? Almost certainly the Cirrus. It's like
saying the Hudson River plane was hit by birds. Not so, the plane hit
the birds.
--
No one is completely unhappy at the failure of his best friend.
Groucho Marx

You should have that seen to.



"Bug Dout" wrote in message
...
"John Ward" writes:

Don't forget that Loek is a former F-16 pilot

He's a current ass.

--
The funny thing about driving your car off a cliff, I bet you're
still hitting those brakes.
- Jack Handey

In article ,
Bug Dout wrote:

"Ian D" writes:

The conclusion as to why this was happening came down to
one word... arrogance. Being in the business of saving lives
these individuals felt that they could handle any situation.

Last summer a doctor I and many others knew stalled a C150 at Lake Tahoe
and killed himself. Arrogrance would be an understatement for that
fellow. And yes, a friend who knew him better than me said the doc
expressed that: he had cheated death on the operating table often, he
could cheat it in the air.

I can certainly see where, being a doctor, flying might seem easy by
comparison and might not get the respect it deserves. The basic training
certainly is easier, just compare the amount of time you need to
dedicate to getting, say, a PPL with the amount of time needed for
medical school. But just because it's easy to learn the basics doesn't
mean you can treat it without respect....

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon

Loek writes:

I'm not saying you are wrong, just that you can not know what really
happened except making "wild" guesses. For the same reason a bar in the
cockpit may have obstructed the view at the critical moment. (I don't know
the cirrus!) Or was their attention drawn away for some yet unknown reason.
Go ahead and find some other less logical reasons. There is lots of them.

True, there are jillions of potential reasons for the accident other than
simple pilot error. But pilot error looms large in accident statistics, and in
this case it's hard to imagine any other plausible explanation.

Even if something obstructed the pilot's view momentarily or his attention was
drawn elsewhere, it's still his fault, as he should have sufficient
situational awareness to know of the other aircraft without having to depend
on a fraction of a second of perception. What about radio calls? What about
traffic patterns? There are multiple ways in which he should have become aware
of the other aircraft.

Unless the surviving pilot and passengers from the glider can shed some
insight into this accident, we may never know what actually happened, but I
don't think it's unreasonable to assume pilot error until proven otherwise.

There's also the eerie coincidence of there being at least one other accident
with a Cirrus that happened pretty much exactly the same way, except that
there were survivors.

On Feb 9, 6:55*am, Mxsmanic wrote:

True, there are jillions of potential reasons for the accident other than
simple pilot error. But pilot error looms large in accident statistics, and in
this case it's hard to imagine any other plausible explanation.

This coming from some-one who has never flown an aircraft in real
time.
Remember that mixedup's only claim to flying is playing flying
simulator games.
And as to 'situational awareness' there's an extremely large blind
spot in the modern sailplane right under the nose

In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote:

Loek writes:

I'm not saying you are wrong, just that you can not know what really
happened except making "wild" guesses. For the same reason a bar in the
cockpit may have obstructed the view at the critical moment. (I don't know
the cirrus!) Or was their attention drawn away for some yet unknown reason.
Go ahead and find some other less logical reasons. There is lots of them.

True, there are jillions of potential reasons for the accident other than
simple pilot error. But pilot error looms large in accident statistics, and in
this case it's hard to imagine any other plausible explanation.

It's trivial to imagine many other plausible explanations. The others
are not LIKELY, but there are tons of scenarios which are plausible.

There's also the eerie coincidence of there being at least one other accident
with a Cirrus that happened pretty much exactly the same way, except that
there were survivors.

You have awfully low standards for eerieness. Two accidents happening
the same way that just happened to involve the same type of aircraft is
not eerie, it's just happenstance.

--
Mike Ash
Radio Free Earth
Broadcasting from our climate-controlled studios deep inside the Moon