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IFR Cancellation Question



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 8th 06, 12:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
A Lieberma
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Posts: 318
Default IFR Cancellation Question

Severe clear today, so other then the safety net of ATC services, weather
wasn't an issue.

Coming back from HBG (Hattiesburg MS) to MBO (Madison MS) encountered the
following exchange with ATC. I was already told to expect the visual
approach in my inital contact with approach controller. Frequency, while
not wall to wall traffic, was busier then normal.

ATC Sundowner 1943L, descend and maintain 2000, report Madison in sight.
Me 43L will report Madison in sight.
Me Approach 43L, has Madison in sight
ATC 43L radar services terminated, squawk VFR, have a good evening
Me Uh, 43L would like to cancel IFR at this time.
ATC 43L radar services terminated, squawk VFR.
Me, Uh, will assume IFR cancellation received, squawking VFR, good
evening.

I change to Unicom and land as normal. After landing, switch over to
Clearance and Delivery (CD) to see if indeed my IFR cancellation was
received, but it was busy with the controller handling approach and
departure traffic (one guy does all I guess?) so I didn't interrupt the
frequency.

Took my time tying down and hung around for a bit just in case ATC called
the airport, in which they did not (seen this done many times when IFR
traffic forgets to call CD) so I felt comfortable that the airspace was
re-opened for arrivals.

Queston one: I never was cleared for the visual which caught me off
guard on my forth line, and since it was severe clear, I figured go ahead
and cancel my IFR thus negating my need for the visual clearance. No
biggie, but shouldn't I have been cleared for the visual before radar
services are terminated?

Question two: While I wanted on the tapes that IFR cancellation was
received (see last transmission by me), was I truly and properly
cancelled out of the IFR system? Since the frequency was busy, figured
to let sleeping dogs rest, but I wasn't comfortable with the fact that I
didn't hear the buzz words "IFR cancellation received".

Question three: Is this worthy of ASR filing? No safety issue by any
means, but there were areas left wide open for miscommunication (I.E. not
getting the airpsace freed up for the next IFR arrival).

Allen
  #2  
Old December 8th 06, 12:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Ron Natalie
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Posts: 1,175
Default IFR Cancellation Question

A Lieberma wrote:


Queston one: I never was cleared for the visual which caught me off
guard on my forth line, and since it was severe clear, I figured go ahead
and cancel my IFR thus negating my need for the visual clearance. No
biggie, but shouldn't I have been cleared for the visual before radar
services are terminated?


There seems to be a disconnect as you have noticed. This is not the
way to handle visual approaches for IFR. While "Radar Services
Terminated" doesn't imply IFR cancellation, the squawk VFR would
lead me to wonder if the controller had lost track of the fact that
you were IFR to begin with.


Question two: While I wanted on the tapes that IFR cancellation was
received (see last transmission by me), was I truly and properly
cancelled out of the IFR system? Since the frequency was busy, figured
to let sleeping dogs rest, but I wasn't comfortable with the fact that I
didn't hear the buzz words "IFR cancellation received".


I wouldn't be too worried about that. There are a lot of checks for
unclosed flight plans and if they find you before they launch search
and rescue I can't imagine the FAA persuing it.

Question three: Is this worthy of ASR filing? No safety issue by any
means, but there were areas left wide open for miscommunication (I.E. not
getting the airpsace freed up for the next IFR arrival).

It's VERY MUCH WORTY of an ASRS filing. Not just because of the
"Get out of jail free" feature. There is something really non-standard
going on here and checking up on potential safety issues is what
ASRS is really for.

I might even just inquire with the facility QA person as to just
what exactly what is going on.
  #3  
Old December 8th 06, 12:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Jim Macklin
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Posts: 2,070
Default IFR Cancellation Question

I would file the ASR which can now be done on-line.

I think the controller forgot that you were an IFR handoff
an not a VFR getting traffic advisories.



"A Lieberma" wrote in message
. 18...
| Severe clear today, so other then the safety net of ATC
services, weather
| wasn't an issue.
|
| Coming back from HBG (Hattiesburg MS) to MBO (Madison MS)
encountered the
| following exchange with ATC. I was already told to expect
the visual
| approach in my inital contact with approach controller.
Frequency, while
| not wall to wall traffic, was busier then normal.
|
| ATC Sundowner 1943L, descend and maintain 2000, report
Madison in sight.
| Me 43L will report Madison in sight.
| Me Approach 43L, has Madison in sight
| ATC 43L radar services terminated, squawk VFR, have a good
evening
| Me Uh, 43L would like to cancel IFR at this time.
| ATC 43L radar services terminated, squawk VFR.
| Me, Uh, will assume IFR cancellation received, squawking
VFR, good
| evening.
|
| I change to Unicom and land as normal. After landing,
switch over to
| Clearance and Delivery (CD) to see if indeed my IFR
cancellation was
| received, but it was busy with the controller handling
approach and
| departure traffic (one guy does all I guess?) so I didn't
interrupt the
| frequency.
|
| Took my time tying down and hung around for a bit just in
case ATC called
| the airport, in which they did not (seen this done many
times when IFR
| traffic forgets to call CD) so I felt comfortable that the
airspace was
| re-opened for arrivals.
|
| Queston one: I never was cleared for the visual which
caught me off
| guard on my forth line, and since it was severe clear, I
figured go ahead
| and cancel my IFR thus negating my need for the visual
clearance. No
| biggie, but shouldn't I have been cleared for the visual
before radar
| services are terminated?
|
| Question two: While I wanted on the tapes that IFR
cancellation was
| received (see last transmission by me), was I truly and
properly
| cancelled out of the IFR system? Since the frequency was
busy, figured
| to let sleeping dogs rest, but I wasn't comfortable with
the fact that I
| didn't hear the buzz words "IFR cancellation received".
|
| Question three: Is this worthy of ASR filing? No safety
issue by any
| means, but there were areas left wide open for
miscommunication (I.E. not
| getting the airpsace freed up for the next IFR arrival).
|
| Allen


  #4  
Old December 8th 06, 01:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Roy Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 478
Default IFR Cancellation Question

In article ,
Ron Natalie wrote:

Question two: While I wanted on the tapes that IFR cancellation was
received (see last transmission by me), was I truly and properly
cancelled out of the IFR system? Since the frequency was busy, figured
to let sleeping dogs rest, but I wasn't comfortable with the fact that I
didn't hear the buzz words "IFR cancellation received".


I wouldn't be too worried about that. There are a lot of checks for
unclosed flight plans and if they find you before they launch search
and rescue I can't imagine the FAA persuing it.


If you were concerned that the controller hadn't cancelled your IFR, you
could have called 1-800-WX-BRIEF and cancelled (again) on the phone.

I do agree that something seems to have gone funny here. It could just be
some non-standard phraseology on the part of the controller, or it could be
that he actually thought you were VFR all along (although, the "descend and
maintain 2000" makes me doubt that). An ASRS report couldn't hurt.
  #5  
Old December 8th 06, 01:12 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default IFR Cancellation Question


"A Lieberma" wrote in message
. 18...

Severe clear today, so other then the safety net of ATC services, weather
wasn't an issue.

Coming back from HBG (Hattiesburg MS) to MBO (Madison MS) encountered the
following exchange with ATC. I was already told to expect the visual
approach in my inital contact with approach controller. Frequency, while
not wall to wall traffic, was busier then normal.

ATC Sundowner 1943L, descend and maintain 2000, report Madison in sight.
Me 43L will report Madison in sight.
Me Approach 43L, has Madison in sight
ATC 43L radar services terminated, squawk VFR, have a good evening
Me Uh, 43L would like to cancel IFR at this time.
ATC 43L radar services terminated, squawk VFR.
Me, Uh, will assume IFR cancellation received, squawking VFR, good
evening.

I change to Unicom and land as normal. After landing, switch over to
Clearance and Delivery (CD) to see if indeed my IFR cancellation was
received, but it was busy with the controller handling approach and
departure traffic (one guy does all I guess?) so I didn't interrupt the
frequency.

Took my time tying down and hung around for a bit just in case ATC called
the airport, in which they did not (seen this done many times when IFR
traffic forgets to call CD) so I felt comfortable that the airspace was
re-opened for arrivals.

Queston one: I never was cleared for the visual which caught me off
guard on my forth line, and since it was severe clear, I figured go ahead
and cancel my IFR thus negating my need for the visual clearance. No
biggie, but shouldn't I have been cleared for the visual before radar
services are terminated?


Yes. Somewhere between "Sundowner 1943L, descend and maintain 2000, report
Madison in sight." and "43L radar services terminated, squawk VFR, have a
good evening." the controller forgot you were operating IFR.



Question two: While I wanted on the tapes that IFR cancellation was
received (see last transmission by me), was I truly and properly
cancelled out of the IFR system? Since the frequency was busy, figured
to let sleeping dogs rest, but I wasn't comfortable with the fact that I
didn't hear the buzz words "IFR cancellation received".


Properly? No. But you're at the end of the line anyway. If the approach
controller believes you're VFR you're out of the IFR system.



Question three: Is this worthy of ASR filing? No safety issue by any
means, but there were areas left wide open for miscommunication (I.E. not
getting the airpsace freed up for the next IFR arrival).


Any anomaly is worthy of filing.


  #6  
Old December 8th 06, 02:13 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
dlevy
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 30
Default IFR Cancellation Question

Does "Sundowner 1943L, descend and maintain 2000, report Madison in sight."
imply the controller thought he was IFR?

Wouldn't he say the same thing with VFR flight following (traffic
advisories)?

you 'da man!

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...
snip Yes. Somewhere between "Sundowner 1943L, descend and maintain 2000,
report Madison in sight." and "43L radar services terminated, squawk VFR,
have a good evening." the controller forgot you were operating IFR.
snip



  #7  
Old December 8th 06, 02:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default IFR Cancellation Question


"dlevy" wrote in message
...

Does "Sundowner 1943L, descend and maintain 2000, report Madison in
sight." imply the controller thought he was IFR?


Yes.


Wouldn't he say the same thing with VFR flight following (traffic
advisories)?


No. Recall that he was told to expect a visual approach on initial contact
with Jackson approach. Only an IFR arrival would be told to expect a visual
approach. The controller told him to report Madison in sight so that he
could issue the visual approach clearance, so he's still thinking IFR at
that point.


  #8  
Old December 8th 06, 02:30 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Roy Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 478
Default IFR Cancellation Question

In article ,
"dlevy" wrote:

Does "Sundowner 1943L, descend and maintain 2000, report Madison in sight."
imply the controller thought he was IFR?


Assignment of an altitude pretty much means IFR.
  #9  
Old December 8th 06, 02:35 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
Steven P. McNicoll
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default IFR Cancellation Question


"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...

Assignment of an altitude pretty much means IFR.


VFR aircraft can be assigned an altitude in Class C airspace, at 2000 MSL
over MBO he'd be in the Jackson Class C airspace.


  #10  
Old December 8th 06, 02:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr
A Lieberma
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 318
Default IFR Cancellation Question

Ron Natalie wrote in
:

It's VERY MUCH WORTY of an ASRS filing. Not just because of the
"Get out of jail free" feature. There is something really
non-standard going on here and checking up on potential safety issues
is what ASRS is really for.


Well, *I think* I submitted a form?????

Downloaded the Adobe form, and at the bottom, has a submit button. Got a
promt warning me I couldn't save the filled out data, push OK, but no
computerized acknowledgement that it was even sent.

Guess time will tell if I get the top part of the form or not...

I might even just inquire with the facility QA person as to just
what exactly what is going on.


Since this is a first time occurrence and no safety issue came up, won't
make a big ado of this, just the ASRS report should suffice. I have never
had bad services from ATC, in fact always the other way around, outstanding
service.

I guess the crux of this post was to be sure I wasn't out to lunch
expecting certain phraseology from ATC.

Allen

 




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