First Time Buyer. Help!

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 15:33:56 GMT, "Mike Rapoport"
wrote:

Kyles advice is right on. I would add "buy an airplane that you can afford
to fly without thinking about the expense" I know some frustrated pilots
who don't fly much because the Baron (or whatever) is expensive enough that
they don't fly it unless they really need to go somewhere. Also I would
prefer an airplane that I could keep at the nearest airport. So if the
nearest airport does not have hanger space availible, get an airplane that
you are willing to leave outside.

Mike, thanks very much. I hadn't considered the fact that until
hangar space becomes available, we'll be tying her down.

Mike
MU-2

--
Kay
Student Pilot
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On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 07:36:42 -0600, Stu Gotts
wrote:

Here's the best advice you can receive;

1. Join the type club for the particular aircraft you're considering.
They'll be able to tell you the do's and don'ts of the units as well
as the performance specs of the various year models..

Excellent! Thanks for this tip, it makes perfect sense.

2. Get a prebuy done by a mechanic knowledgable in the model you're
considering.

3. See #2

4. See #2

5. See #2


OK.

Good luck

--
Kay
Student Pilot
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On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 14:46:26 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Personally, I would recommend renting a wide variety of aircraft for a short
time -- six months to a year -- after getting your ticket. Expose yourself
to as many different makes and models as possible, before you decide to
purchase one.

Actually, this is what my instructor is recommending as well. I think
it's great advice. On the other hand, 6 months will come and go
before a blink of an eye and I'd like to get started on the planning
part of this before hand. I believe it's going to take some time to
work out the partnership arrangements, find a mechanic, decide on the
home field etc. In the meantime, I will take you up on your
suggestion and fly different kinds of aircraft. First on the list is
the FBO's Piper Arrow.

You may find that you prefer something different than what you trained in,
and purchasing the wrong plane can be expensive. (Although it's hard to go
too wrong with a 172. You can always sell it for darned near what you paid
for it.)

Exactly what we were thinking: Purchase a forgiving airplane for
learning instruments that will not be too hard to sell later on and
that won't lose much of its value.

As for finances, do NOT try to justify your purchase financially. Owning an
aircraft can be done for convenience, or business, or enjoyment, or a hobby,
or training, or a billion other reasons -- but it cannot be done to "save
money."

I know! But try selling that to my husband. The numbers need to
work at least mythically before we sign on the dotted line for a hobby
of mine. Going for me is the fact that we signed on a similar dotted
line for his hobby a few years ago: a very painful check for a golf
club membership. Now, if there's a hobby expense that makes less
sense financially than airplane ownership, it must be golf club
membership. (Conduct business out there?... Oh, um, uh-huh. )

That said, I wouldn't trade it for the world. The knowledge that I can go
from Iowa to Florida in 6.5 hours -- at a moment's notice -- provides a
great deal of "value" to me -- especially in winter. :-)

Jay, that's the lure indeed. Thanks so much for your post!

--
Kay
Student Pilot
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On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 22:47:08 GMT, "Dude" wrote:

Don't just buy a cessna because you trained in it.

Also to consider is that the field we are training on is on the short
side, and turf. But you're right, that airport may not be ultimately
where we end up basing the airplane. I actually do like Piper
aircraft very well. I trained in a Warrior the first 20 hours of my
lessons and *still* miss the visibility in the pattern with the low
wing. I also miss its throttle placement. And its manual flaps.

I do not miss its single door though.

I like the idea of renting around in order to compare models. You may also
find that some private owners will give you a ride, but don't expect them to
let you do anything other than a few turns.

I take every ride I can, and have had the opportunity to fly in some
beautiful airplanes! My favorite so far was a Commanche. It was
meticulous... a little out of my reach at the moment though.

There is a wide amount of choices in your price range that vary a lot on
load, handling, stability, fun, etc. Don't worry too much about speed
because it tends to cost more than its worth to most buyers in your range.
Getting speed always means giving up something else.

This is something to consider. It's very tempting to try and get a
fast airplane. But I think you're right, and also: how fast can you
get within our price range and still have a solid aircraft with few
squawks?

And no matter what, you'll always want it to be faster right? A friend
of mine just bought a turbo Arrow, and is already complaining it isn't
fast enough.

My thoughts are that we need to get something reasonable for longer
cross countries, but if there's an overwhelming need to get somewhere
quickly it's pretty easy to call US Air. Know what I mean?

Thank you so much for your post. This piece about speed consideration
is very valuable.

--
Kay
Student Pilot
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On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 20:23:49 -0500, "Bill" wrote:

Establish the partnership agreement IN WRITING !.

Even if just between the 2 of you, in WRITING determine how expenses will be
handled, maintainence, what happens when things BREAK when YOU and they are
using it. There are 2 basic methods.

1: You estimate all costs ahead of time, divide by XX hrs of planned annual
use then charge an hourly rate accordingly. Most partnerships are done this
way. You determine that GAS will be always left to the tabs (or full). Any
more left in, is free for the next flyer. If expenses are more than what's
"in the bank", then you have one time assessments to meet the expenses.

2: You split everything 50/50. (My partnership is this way). All expenses
are split 50/50 each month EXCEPT GAS. When returning you leave the gas at
the tabs. The more you fly, the better for you. My partner and I get along
great and the plane is always in tip top shape. if something breaks when I'm
flying. I take it to the mechanic and we split the cost. Same for my
partner.


Yes, absolutely! All this needs to be worked out in advance in writing
so that friends stay friends. What would be your opinion of a hybrid
here? I think some variable expenses should be prorated, but fixed
expenses should be split evenly. I mean, the hangar fee and annual
inspection for example, will need to be done regardless of who flies
more.

For the purchase contract, there is a good boiler plate in the AOPA website.
If youre not a member.. join. Use the title search service (cheap check to
be sure the seller is the ONLY owenr of the plane). I got insurance through
them too. Frist year was 1500, second 1000 (I got my instrument, partner has
ATP and 27000 hrs !).

I didn't know that AOPA offered a purchase contract. What a great
resource, one I'll look into more. Thanks!

Don't think the pre-buy will find EVERYTHNG. We had a good prebuy but
found some things later but we were happy with our purchase and still are.
If you can find it, buy it with the radios you want in it OR it has to be
such a good deal that you will put the radios in and have $ left over.
radio installation is not cheap. We put a GPS , NAV COM and audio panel.
The INSTALL bill alone was $3000. This was added to an IFR cert airplane !

Plan on 2-3000 each for unexpected repairs the first year.

Good advice. We had thought of setting funds aside for maintenance
and for an eventual overhaul, but not a cushion for first year
squawks.

GOOD LUCK.

Thanks!!

--
Kay
Student Pilot
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On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 22:56:22 -0800, "MRQB" wrote:

On your pre buy make sure you take a mechanic can check the avionics and
instruments in the pre buy its the only thing we did not check and during
the after purchurace inspection was deturmed that most all my instruments
needed replaced nice little $2,400 dent in the pocket book but what the hell
its only money we can always make more right.

Thanks MRQB. I hope you're enjoying your new airplane!

--
Kay
Student Pilot
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I know! But try selling that to my husband. The numbers need to
work at least mythically before we sign on the dotted line for a hobby
of mine.

This is the way we started ten years ago, only the other way around -- I was
a pilot first. My wife, Mary, got her ticket five years later -- and we've
spent the last five years sharing flight-time equally, and flying with our
kids all over the country!

The main thing is to get your husband interested enough to get HIS pilot's
certificate. Then you've got it made in the shade! :-)

Going for me is the fact that we signed on a similar dotted
line for his hobby a few years ago: a very painful check for a golf
club membership. Now, if there's a hobby expense that makes less
sense financially than airplane ownership, it must be golf club
membership. (Conduct business out there?... Oh, um, uh-huh. )

Hee hee! Mary and I used to golf, before I got my ticket. Now, when asked
to describe flying to a total stranger, our usual response is "It ain't
golf..."

That's the trouble with flying -- once you've tasted it, EVERYTHING else is
boring. The last time I golfed, all I could do was watch the planes flying
over, wishing I was up THERE spending my money, rather than down here on the
turf, chasing that stupid white ball.... ;-)

That was over 8 years ago, and I don't miss it at all.

That said, I wouldn't trade it for the world. The knowledge that I can
go
from Iowa to Florida in 6.5 hours -- at a moment's notice -- provides a
great deal of "value" to me -- especially in winter. :-)

Jay, that's the lure indeed. Thanks so much for your post!

Once you've been somewhere a great distance from home, you realize how
powerful and wonderful your airplane can be. We have flown to the Grand
Canyon, Albuquerque, Carlsbad, Flori-duh, Ohio, Michigan -- and all points
in between -- for the last ten years. (All VFR, by the way.) There is
just no greater feeling than flying 1200 miles in a day, and arriving,
feeling refreshed. Try THAT in your car.

More importantly, because of the close-knit aviation community, no matter
where you go, you're right "at home." It doesn't matter where you fly --
airports are friendly, cool places!

Good luck with your search -- and with convincing your husband!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

The 3-way partnership that I am in (Cardinal RG '75) has a mixed form:

1- the fixed costs (insurance, tie-down, etc and $1000 against the
annual), we each pay in each month:
1/3 of the monthly amount each month
2- the variable costs, we each pay in each month:
$15 per tach hour for maintenance
$10 per tach hour for engine overhaul reserve
3- we leave the plane full of fuel (the oil and other expendables are
covered in #2)
4- extraordinary items (like this fall's paint job):
we have a special assessment, 1/3 each

One of us keeps the books, one is the maintenance honcho, and the
third deals with the insurance company.

We schedule by phone call (1 guy hasn't flown in almost 2 years, makes
it easy).

I have owned planes solo previously, this is my first partnership.
I have been in this for just over a year and am "happy as a hog in
slops" as the country phrase goes.

- Steve


On Sun, 04 Apr 2004 08:55:58 -0400, KayInPA
wrote:

On Sat, 3 Apr 2004 20:23:49 -0500, "Bill" wrote:

Establish the partnership agreement IN WRITING !.

Even if just between the 2 of you, in WRITING determine how expenses will be
handled, maintainence, what happens when things BREAK when YOU and they are
using it. There are 2 basic methods.

1: You estimate all costs ahead of time, divide by XX hrs of planned annual
use then charge an hourly rate accordingly. Most partnerships are done this
way. You determine that GAS will be always left to the tabs (or full). Any
more left in, is free for the next flyer. If expenses are more than what's
"in the bank", then you have one time assessments to meet the expenses.

2: You split everything 50/50. (My partnership is this way). All expenses
are split 50/50 each month EXCEPT GAS. When returning you leave the gas at
the tabs. The more you fly, the better for you. My partner and I get along
great and the plane is always in tip top shape. if something breaks when I'm
flying. I take it to the mechanic and we split the cost. Same for my
partner.


Yes, absolutely! All this needs to be worked out in advance in writing
so that friends stay friends. What would be your opinion of a hybrid
here? I think some variable expenses should be prorated, but fixed
expenses should be split evenly. I mean, the hangar fee and annual
inspection for example, will need to be done regardless of who flies
more.

For the purchase contract, there is a good boiler plate in the AOPA website.
If youre not a member.. join. Use the title search service (cheap check to
be sure the seller is the ONLY owenr of the plane). I got insurance through
them too. Frist year was 1500, second 1000 (I got my instrument, partner has
ATP and 27000 hrs !).

I didn't know that AOPA offered a purchase contract. What a great
resource, one I'll look into more. Thanks!

Don't think the pre-buy will find EVERYTHNG. We had a good prebuy but
found some things later but we were happy with our purchase and still are.
If you can find it, buy it with the radios you want in it OR it has to be
such a good deal that you will put the radios in and have $ left over.
radio installation is not cheap. We put a GPS , NAV COM and audio panel.
The INSTALL bill alone was $3000. This was added to an IFR cert airplane !

Plan on 2-3000 each for unexpected repairs the first year.

Good advice. We had thought of setting funds aside for maintenance
and for an eventual overhaul, but not a cushion for first year
squawks.

GOOD LUCK.

Thanks!!

"KayInPA" wrote in message
...

with the secondary goal being the freedom to go further away and for
longer stretches of time than our FBO allows. I think an IFR 172 fits

Does your FBO actually have a limit on how far away you can take the
airplane in miles? That would be quite odd and would seem to defeat the
point of flying.

If the problem instead is that the FBO has a minimum number of hours for a
daily rental, then I suspect that even if you took the airplane for a week
at a time occasionally with say a 3-hour daily minimum, you still would come
out way, way ahead financially compared with owning your airplane.

Not only that, but if you are known to the FBO as a responsible renter and
frequent customer, I suspect you might well be able to negotiate more
flexible cross-country rental terms than the official terms offered to the
public.

In my mind these are the reasons to buy an airplane:

(1) You fly so many trips that you frequently run into scheduling conflicts
with your local rental airplanes

(2) You plan to fly IFR and cannot locate a rental airplane equipped with
the redundant equipment you prefer for those flights, i.e. backup vacuum
pump or electric AI

(3) You have concerns about the maintenance of the locally available rental
airplanes

(4) You wish to fly an airplane type or class which is not practically
available for rental, i.e. a high performance complex airplane

(5) Pride of ownership -- this is fine on its own as a rationalization as
long as you realize you will pay SUBSTANTIALLY more money to own an airplane
similarly equipped as one you can rent


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"KayInPA" wrote in message
...

Kay
Student Pilot

I would very much suggest you hold off on buying an airplane while you are a
student pilot. Get your private and then figure out what your typical
flying mission will be like. Many (most?) pilots find out that their
aviation goals and missions change once they get their private and start
flying for pleasure.

Even if your goal is to get your instrument rating, I am not sure it makes
sense to buy an airplane just for that goal. The cost of owning an airplane
is substantially more than the cost of an IFR rating, and one way airplane
owners often SUBSTANTIALLY increase their costs is by buying an airplane
which does not meet their needs and then trading up in 1-2 years.

You need to hold onto an airplane for 5+ years in order to make the
economics of maintenance somewhat realistic. Buying a 172 to complete your
IFR training -- only to realize you really need a 182 given the
distance/payload of your trips -- would be way way more expensive than
getting your IFR rating in a rental 172.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com