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#221
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Future Club Training Gliders
Here are the FAA numbers of all glider ratings, abinitio and add-ons http://www.soaringchapters.org/world_report/ I am very surprised at the extremely low number of add-on glider ratings. Can this be right? *Last year, only 10 power pilots added on a glider rating in the entire US? If that's true, then we should be doing a serious marketing campaign aimed at power pilots who have let their medicals lapse. *That's the really low hanging fruit. -- Mike Schumann I question those numbers as well. *I got into gliders 2008 and have known of at least 4 or 5 add-ons at my small club since, and we are not located in a hotbed of soaring activity. Bob McKellar I don't disagree that the numbers appear low, but we don't have any other collection methodology. The FAA got new servers last years and you'd expect them to be able to sort out the data. You can't even find a glider pilot examiner on the FAA web site. You can find a full list by FSDO region, but there's nothing to indicate glider examiners and FAA staff are not listed. Scottsdale FSDO publishes a list, but I couldn't find any others that do. FAA has an LSA (glider) examiner list. http://www.faa.gov/licenses_certific...r_examiner.pdf Basically, the check ride candidate must contact the FSDO. If we could get an exhaustive list of glider pilot examiners with good e-mails, we could poll them. I suspect only 50-60% of the examiners are SSA members. In my FSDO region, 40% of DPE don't appear to have ever been SSA members. Glad to hear of any other suggestions. Frank Whiteley |
#222
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Nov 9, 3:39*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote: On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 14:41:00 -0800, noel.wade wrote: I think you have misunderstood my last comment and the comments of others here. *No one is saying that you have to buy a DG-1000 or a Duo- Discus or an Arcus in order to conduct training. No, I'm with you but a lot are arguing that even an G.103 is outrageous when a 2-33 will do. I spoke up this time because there seemed to be a hint of 'people who learn on glass will all be flying the latest and greatest single seaters' and I wanted to see if I'd misread the writer: seems that I had. Your example of an ASK-21 is a sex-machine compared to the Schweizer gliders! *Compa I don't need to compare them. There's one of the Avenal 2-33s in my log book. :-) I like flying our club Juniors in winter or when there's some other reason I'm not flying my Libelle and, as I've flown an ASK-23, a Ka-8 and a PW-5, I reckon about there's an unfilled slot in my logbook that is the same shape as a 1-26. I hear they're fun to fly even if they do penetrate even worse than a Junior. Can they be winched? The point is that even someone who knows nothing about airplanes can tell which one is more modern and capable. Sure, and I agree that's a no-brainer. THEY are the exception. *The average citizen (at least in the USA) is not going to slog through all that, and their interest-level is certainly going to be affected by how modern (or at least modern-looking) the aircraft are. *Its just human nature. I'm probably one of them to some extent: the ASK-21 hooked me where an ASK-13 couldn't, though to be fair that happened 10+ years after I had the K-13 ride, I was no longer totally gung-ho about competition free flight and was probably subconsciously looking for a new challenge. There's a similarity: my favourite models always have been F1A towline gliders and now winch launching is my preferred way of getting airborne, outnumbering aero tows this year by better than 15:1. -- martin@ * | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org * * * | I think there is something missed here. To say that one is shallow for not training up in a primitive old glider isn't valid. If that were true, then all you guys are the shallow ones, for not buying and flying a 2-33. When I first showed up to take my glider ride 3 or 4 years ago, I jumped into a DG1000, paid my $200 to the private operation, came back, and joined the club on the field. (The operation is unusual because the DG1000 owner is a club CFIG and is towed up by club towplanes, even for private rides, in direct competition with the club trial ride program, and there are more advantages than negatives in the arrangement.) I trained in L23s and the DG1000, with a $60 or $75 per hour fee to use the DG1000 on top of tow fees. It was clear to me that in most cases the learning went at exactly the same speed in either ship, and I jumped into whichever was available.But the goal was to fly a DG300 at some point, which I now do. In fact I owned it long before I soloed and could fly it. If I understand people to be saying "kids to day won't train in a 2-33 or an L23 on their way to flying a slippery ship, the will just give up if they don't have a DG100 type plane", I think that is wrong. But they do need to see a path to flying with the big dogs back in the mountains or way up high at some point, in a nice plane. Brian |
#223
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Nov 9, 12:48*am, Mike Schumann
wrote: You are absolutely right. *Looks matter a LOT. *Just look at Apple's success. -- Mike Schumann Darn, and there I thought he was going to say "Just look at Dave's success". See ya, Dave |
#224
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Nov 9, 5:37*pm, bildan wrote:
IIRC, It was also a time when AVGAS jumped from around $.50/gal to $2/ gal. *It was a time when a sharp pencil analysis showed it no longer made economic sense for me to own an airplane. Fuel costs in a 2000 Hr TBO cycle went from $10,000 to $40,000 which made fuel four times the cost of the engine overhaul. *By 1996, any trip by GA airplane could be done faster and cheaper by other means. Burning 10 GPH at 125Kts didn't make sense. *Many flying enthusiasts who could no longer justify an airplane went to gliders. Prior to the mid-90's, many people actually used GA airplanes as business travel tools. *Afterward, airplane ownership tended to resemble yacht ownership. *The purpose of owning an airplane became a public display of how much money you had to spend. *Money display types are hard to convert to gliding - it isn't showy enough. I recall an "airport day" display of a very pretty glass glider next to a Gulfstream bizjet. *The Gulfstream owner was really ****ed when crowds gathered around the glider and not his flying yacht. *He made a scene with the airport management demanding they, "Get that glider the hell out of here".- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - You are lucky that you don't live in the UK, where Avgas is (very highly) taxed as a motor fuel, but jet fuel isn't. And this is in a country that is an oil producer! The only good thing is that oil price fluctuations have little effect on motor fuel prices, because most of what you pay is tax. BTW most UK gliding clubs run their winches on LPG (propane) or red tractor diesel because these attract a lower rate of duty. http://www.petrolprices.com/fuel-tax.html UK joke: What do you call somebody who doesn't run a car? A tax evader! Derek C |
#225
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Nov 9, 4:34*am, Derek ruddock wrote:
Funnily enough, my first trial flight was at Cambridge Club: I was launched in a K13 and had a short thermalling flight, but never went back because I was expecting a sleek fibreglass machine rather than something that was older than I was (29 at the time). I ended up joining London gliding club, whos had a fleet of 6 K21's, and went solo in one of their K23's (a single seat version of a K21) Lasham runs a large fleet of elderly K13s, albeit with nosewheel conversions. I often wonder to what extent they put people off gliding. However they are excellent trainers, with just enough vices to teach pilots to deal with anything they may come across later in their careers. We have a couple of K21s, but they are so bland and easy to fly that they might cause problems later on, IMHO as an instructor. We mainly use them for aerobatic training, glass conversions and general fun flying. The advantages of the K13 also include low capital value and lower insurance costs. In fact Lasham's K13s are only insured for third party and seat insurance, as required by EASA regulations. If we damage them, they are either repaired by our in house maintenance organisation or scrapped, not that we have had to do that for a long time. Derek C |
#226
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Future Club Training Gliders
On 2010/11/09 11:36 PM, Mike Ash wrote: In , Martin wrote: On Tue, 09 Nov 2010 13:04:56 -0400, Mike Ash wrote: I assume everyone posting to this thread with this attitude is flying a 1-26, a PW-5, or something similarly economical, right? I'm sure none of you would be so shallow as to have spent a bunch of extra money on a shiny glass slipper.... Well, I'm one of those who got hooked by an ASK-21. I fly one of the prettier glass toys and its gratifyingly shiny, but it is 41 years old and has Libelle written on it. So, where does that put me on your scale? Seems pretty sane to me. I welcome glider pilots in any equipment that makes them happy. I just think that people who claim that looks don't matter ought to put their money where their mouth is.... Some folk are strange and actually WANT to fly the vintage trainers. Now - the opportunity to take the Bergie for a late afternoon lazy amble over the river as the sun sets is not to be missed. Classic vintage wood and fabric - gentle lift and peaceful slow flight has many attractions. But it does not compare to pushing it in a 1:40+ glass single, or even a composite two seater. Personally my back is broken after less than an hour the back seat of in most of the oldies. They are just plain horrible for instruction. My personal maximum has been 11 flights and around 4 hours in the air in a G103. Quite a long day if you include all the fetching and pushing gliders, but no problem. Conversely - 8 launches on one day in a Bergfalke II-55 cured me of wanting to instruct in vintage gliders... My back took days to recover. So depends who you are - I was actually attracted to the club I initially learned at by the vintage trainers. Having moved on - I still value some of the lessons they facilitated. There is something to be said for learning to fly something that fights back when you abuse it. The K21 is a honey to fly, but I wonder about the completeness of skills it would provide if it were the only trainer used. -- Bruce Greeff T59D #1771 & Std Cirrus #57 |
#227
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 22:29:17 +0200, BruceGreeff wrote:
Having moved on - I still value some of the lessons they facilitated. There is something to be said for learning to fly something that fights back when you abuse it. The K21 is a honey to fly, but I wonder about the completeness of skills it would provide if it were the only trainer used. Which is why we counterbalance ours with a G.103, which is better for teaching speed control, and a Puchacz, which enthusiastically does all the stuff an ASK-21 doesn't want to do, and is marvellous to fly solo. -- martin@ | Martin Gregorie gregorie. | Essex, UK org | |
#228
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Nov 10, 1:29*pm, BruceGreeff wrote:
On 2010/11/09 11:36 PM, Mike Ash wrote: Some folk are strange and actually WANT to fly the vintage trainers. No problem with that. I like old wooden gliders too. I just have a problem with coercing others to fly them if they want something better. (A 2-33 isn't 'vintage', it's just old.) Snip--------- The K21 is a honey to fly, but I wonder about the completeness of skills it would provide if it were the only trainer used. Snip--------- As others have pointed out, the K-21 will spin just fine with the CG aft and weight kits are available just for that purpose. I find even with the CG well forward, the ASK-21 clearly exhibits all the pre- stall/stall behaviors a student needs to learn. Just asking them to compare how the K-21 handles at 36Kts vs 42Kts convinces them it flies a lot better at 42. It barks, but doesn't bite. One youngster said in delight, "Hey, it gets wobbley when it's slow just like a bicycle". Yup! |
#229
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Nov 10, 9:27*pm, bildan wrote:
On Nov 10, 1:29*pm, BruceGreeff wrote: On 2010/11/09 11:36 PM, Mike Ash wrote: Some folk are strange and actually WANT to fly the vintage trainers. No problem with that. *I like old wooden gliders too. *I just have a problem with coercing others to fly them if they want something better. *(A 2-33 isn't 'vintage', it's just old.) Snip--------- The K21 is a honey to fly, but I wonder about the completeness of skills it would provide if it were the only trainer used. Snip--------- As others have pointed out, the K-21 will spin just fine with the CG aft and weight kits are available just for that purpose. *I find even with the CG well forward, the ASK-21 clearly exhibits all the pre- stall/stall behaviors a student needs to learn. *Just asking them to compare how the K-21 handles at 36Kts vs 42Kts convinces them it flies a lot better at 42. * It barks, but doesn't bite. One youngster said in delight, "Hey, it gets wobbley when it's slow just like a bicycle". *Yup! The K21 is very stable, normal amount of adverse yaw, no tendency for any of the controls to overbalance, and slightly lacking in rudder power - which is one of the reasons why it is so reluctant to spin. Many heavier pilots could get the impression that if you get a stalled wing drop, it will always turn into a benign spiral dive. That is why it is not a very good trainer. Derek C |
#230
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Future Club Training Gliders
On Nov 10, 10:50*am, Jim Beckman wrote:
Certainly if a club can afford to put that kind of gliders on the field, it's a much better situation than flying 2-33s (at least in some ways). But my club would have to sell off our entire fleet of five gliders (wanna buy a Blanik?) to finance just half the price of an ASK-21. *It's really hard to see how we get from here to there, particularly in these hard-pressed times. * It's a tricky decision. There are all kinds of people in our club, from students and unemployed, to the merely struggling, to some reasonably wealthy people. We are fortunate in that over the years some of the more wealthy members have been prepared to lend money to the club at quite nominal interest rates (e.g. 3%). We recently bought two 18m fixed gear DG1000's (and one nice Cobra trailer, and transponder and Cambridge 302 in one of them at present) to use for everything from rides to basic training to early solos to serious cross country. In order to do this we sold a PW5, a Std Libelle, a Janus, and 2 x Twin Astir. We also owe approximately 2/3 of a DG1000 to a club member, which will take 5 - 10 years to pay back at current usage levels. I personally was opposed to turning 8 bums on seats in the sky into only 4 (actually 9 into 5 as we retained another PW5), but the reality is that it was a very rare day that all 8 were in use, especially as there were only two or three in the club who liked the Janus (and half the instructors weren't even rated in it) and the four 1970's aircraft were starting to become more maintainance-intensive. I'm now convinced that it was well worth turning 3 two-seaters into 2. The DGs clearly outperform everything except the Janus, and are far more pleasant to fly, especially the accommodations in the back seat. I do think we would have been well-advised to keep the PW5 though. Selling it shortened the loan payback hardly at all, and they're excellent for early cross-country exploration. We've already started to see early-solo students accidentally outlanding the DG1000's (safely so far) but it's putting a hard to replace asset at more risk than may be wise. |
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