The battle for Arlington Airport begins?

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 20:38:15 -0600, Mike Wanninger
wrote:

So don't expect a lot of races. In the first year of the track, you will get
maybe one truck race weekend and one Busch race weekend. That will be 4-6 hours
on a Friday or Saturday. And most likely on tow different weekends. Once you
get a big race in another 3-4 years, a CUP event, they will combine two races
over two weekends. So you will see one weekend with a Friday or Saturday truck
race and a Saturday Busch race - and I would not except either event to draw
over 30,000 people. Then one weekend with a combined truck or Busch race and
then the CUP race on Sunday. Because of the combined weekend, the truck/Busch
race may have over 30,000 fans. AND THAT'S IT. NOTHING ELSE.

Thanks for the insight, Mike. I do have a couple of additional questions:

I appreciate your comments on how NASCAR likes general aviation, and how
most tracks have a nearby airport that the drivers and crew use. The
problem is, how many of those are uncontrolled fields, like Arlington? The
TSA will allow the track to be overflown by aircraft under the control of
ATC, but that won't be the case at Arlington.

Second, does that mean these facilities are unused 50 weekends out of the
year? One comment I read (think it was on a local group) said that the
track facilities are usually rented out for other activities most weekends.
If that's the case, we must remember that a TFR isn't triggered by the
actual number people in attendance, it's triggered by the total capacity of
the venue. So if they have a zucchini festival on August 28th, Arlington
will be shut down, even if there are only 500 people at the track.

A final comment...it's all well and good that the drivers, owners, and
crews like a nearby GA airport. However, the one day they probably WON'T
need it is race day. Which, of course, is the day it'd be shut down.

Ron Wanttaja

So what you are saying is that the local politicians are going out of their
way to spend time and effort courting a bunch of rich guys and getting them
tax benefits and using eminent domain for them all so that MAYBE twice a
year a large number of people will swarm the area and spend money. Or MAYBE
in a few years the county will have to IMPROVE the facility to keep NASCAR
from taking their football team, err uh, I mean race to another city?

So will the local community REALLY benefit, or will it be NASCAR, a few
small businesses, and the politicians along with their cronies in
construction and services to provide facilities and get contracts with the
city for vendor rights?

If NASCAR wants to build a race track, then they should buy all the land
themselves, build it themselves, pay the proper taxes, and do what it takes
to buy off the zoning authorities (legal bribes include money for parks,
scholarships, schools, roads, etc.)

I doubt this will happen. But then, I am pretty jaded. Maybe its because I
have seen several stadium deals, along with big manufacturing deals, where
varying levels of government throw huge amounts of cash at rich guys in
order to outbid each other while forcing the little guy on the corner to go
under or at best take a margin hit.

After all, what happens to the venues that used to get paid to host all
these events that will now be at the track? When the big computer company
paid no municipal taxes for their facility, what happened to all the guys
that used custom make them at the strip center? Did they get a break to?
Mom is now at the track 2 days a year, she used to buy the kids pizza those
nights. If NASCAR can lure her away without government aid, then so be it.
Otherwise, I think the pizza guy would rather not lose the business to the
councilman's brother in law that now has the hot dog contract at the track.

Still like the idea?

In the meantime all the same groups of people will be happy to pull up your
neighborhood airport without even thinking about how it will affect the
community. They will do so to make a buck on some stupid development that
could just as easily been 3 miles sown the road.

What's amazing is that it seems most former airport areas around here are
worse than they used to be before it was closed, yet they still want to do
it to more and more airports!

Rant Complete!



"Mike Wanninger" wrote in message
...
There have been a lot of replies on this subject - but maybe I can add
some
info. I have been a NASCAR fansince the '60's as a kid. I live between
Birmingham and Talladega, Alabama. Talladega is the worlds largest and
fastest
racetrack and owned by International Raceway. International Raceway is
owned by
the France family who also owns NASCAR - so NASCAR gives the track
anything they
want.
I don't fly yet but came in on a commercial flight over the track
Wednesday.
Next to the track is the
nice big long paved airstrip. Before they build the backstretch seating
you
could see where you could taxi from the airstrip to infield of the
racetrack.
So, NASCAR and flying go together. Former driver Bobby Allison holds
dozens of
STCs for Pipers and Aerostars. Years back, in a publicity event, he
actually
took delivery of a new Aerostar as it was flown into the track
backstretch.
Rusty Wallace put his profits in a aircraft rental firm. Owner Jack
Rousch flys
dozens of planes including a P51 Mustang - and a EAA member. If you look
on the
Lancair site you will see a turboprop Lancair formerly owned by Bill
Elliott for
sale. (Beautiful rosewood instrument panel by the way.)

So here is what you are up against. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. The Atlanta GA area
has
the baseball Braves, football Falcons, plus pro basketball and hockey,
University of Georgia and Georgia Tech football and basketball. The
Atlanta
Raceway has two events a year for NASCAR. The economic impact to the
State of
Georgia and the City of Atlanta of the two events at the Atlanta Raceway
is
greater than all football, baseball, hockey and basketball in the area
COMBINED. Just to make sure you heard me - the two NASCAR race weekends
are
more important to the economy of the area then every other sporting event
in the
Atlanta area combined. And the racetrack is about 30-50 miles north of
Atlanta,
so Atlanta does not collect on the race, but does collect on the Braves,
Falcons, etc. Yet the races are still more important to the city of
Atlanta
than all the other events. The local politicians cannot ignore that - and
if
they are doing what is best for the area in economic terms, they should
not
ignore it.
Second, your airport would be a major advantage for the track and, unless
they
choose to build a new airport at the track, NASCAR will want to move
closer to
the airport - not further away. They will have a nearby GA airport or
they will
not build.


Now the good news. There is a extreme shortage of racedates. NASCAR
races at
probably 25 or more tracks and they all would like to have 2 or more
races. But
NASCAR has limited the schedule to 36 race dates. The two major track
owners are
paying millions for buy tracks - just to shutdown the track and get the
racedate
for a larger track. (These two owners are now listed in the billionares
club by
Fortune. Again you are fighting very very big money.) If a track does
not sell
out every CUP race now, they loose the event. Two tracks, both owned by
International Raceway, were cut down to one race a year in order to move
the
events to newer tracks. One of the tracks is Darlington and they have
been
racing there for over 50 years. Gone.
So don't expect a lot of races. In the first year of the track, you will
get
maybe one truck race weekend and one Busch race weekend. That will be 4-6
hours
on a Friday or Saturday. And most likely on tow different weekends. Once
you
get a big race in another 3-4 years, a CUP event, they will combine two
races
over two weekends. So you will see one weekend with a Friday or Saturday
truck
race and a Saturday Busch race - and I would not except either event to
draw
over 30,000 people. Then one weekend with a combined truck or Busch race
and
then the CUP race on Sunday. Because of the combined weekend, the
truck/Busch
race may have over 30,000 fans. AND THAT'S IT. NOTHING ELSE.
Talladega was two big weekends only. The two cup races. It is busy with
testing of races cars, passenger cars (a Honda plant is only a few miles
away)
and other things. But the have 20-30 people there. There is a daily
events like
driving schools, track tours, the museum etc - but nothing that would
cause a
crowd over a dozen people at a time. Remember the track is owned by NASCAR
and
can seat over 150,000 people.
Twice a year it becomes the 3rd largest cit in Alabama - each paying at
least
$60 for tickets. They pay over $1,500 for backstretch motor home parking
spot.
The more races they give this track the more money they make - yet it only
has
two weekends. Four days of 4-6 hours of over 30,000 people.
The other racing series in the USA are either dying or trying to come back
from
the grave. At best you would have one IRL race - but I would not expect
it for
a long, long time. The busiest NASCAR track is Charlotte. They hold
racing
events there 2-3 times a week. But only twice a year would they have a
large
enough crowd to cause a TFR at 30,000 people. Daytona is the only track
that has
NASCAR events for over 30,000 that cover more that two weekends.

To sum it up, NASCAR likes flying and may want to be close to your
airport, not
away. NASCAR is currently the 800lb gorilla of $port$. Whatever they
want,
they get. But don't expect to see 30,000 people
at the track but for 4-6 hours twice a year - at best.
So sit back and enjoy. You may get a new airstrip out of the track. And
I
will bet you anything that Arlington will get major, major improvements.


Mike Wanninger


Ron Wanttaja wrote:

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 11:56:42 GMT, "Paul Adriance"
wrote:

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
link.net...

Seems like an awefully small speedway.

It will probably be much larger, but it is for sure over 30,000, the
magic
number for the TFRs.

Report on the news last night said 80,000. Several other Puget Sound
locations are vying for the track.

I know next to nothing about routine activity at NASCAR tracks like
they're
talking about building. Do they have races at any given track weekly,
or
biweekly, or....? How long is the nominal "season" (three months, six
months, etc.)?

Finally, and probably most important from the PNW perspective, how are
the
races affected by rain? Moisture-intolerant outdoor activities have a
poor
history, in the Seattle area. You can put a go-kart track indoors, but
I
suspect that's tough to do with NASCAR....

Ron Wanttaja

Ron Wanttaja wrote:

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 20:38:15 -0600, Mike Wanninger
wrote:

So don't expect a lot of races. In the first year of the track, you will get
.
..
.. (Cut to save space)
..
race may have over 30,000 fans. AND THAT'S IT. NOTHING ELSE.




Thanks for the insight, Mike. I do have a couple of additional questions:

I appreciate your comments on how NASCAR likes general aviation, and how
most tracks have a nearby airport that the drivers and crew use. The
problem is, how many of those are uncontrolled fields, like Arlington? The
TSA will allow the track to be overflown by aircraft under the control of
ATC, but that won't be the case at Arlington.

Each track is different of course. The nearest Airport to Daytona is the city
airport. But from what I have seen, most of the airports are really just
airstrips. The airfield is totally uncontrolled. I suspect there is something
on race day, but the field at Talledaga is not controlled. In a few areas, the
"city" has expanded to meet the track, so that the track field is in the area of
control of nearby large airport. But the new tracks are all built out from the
cities.


Second, does that mean these facilities are unused 50 weekends out of the
year? One comment I read (think it was on a local group) said that the
track facilities are usually rented out for other activities most weekends.
If that's the case, we must remember that a TFR isn't triggered by the
actual number people in attendance, it's triggered by the total capacity of
the venue. So if they have a zucchini festival on August 28th, Arlington
will be shut down, even if there are only 500 people at the track.

Again depends on the track. Like I mentioned, some cities have expanded to
surround the track. Several California tracks are gone because the land became
to valuable. But unless the track is very close to the city, it stays idle.
I checked the web site of several tracks. Sears Point is about a hour out of
San Francisco and is booked about every weekend - all racing. Watkins Glen in
New York state is a very old, well know road course and they have events
thoughout the summer. But Sears Point and Glen are they are road courses and
SCCA, motocycles, etc will race there. The newest oval tracks on the circuit
are Chicago, Las Vegas and Kansas. They have only one or two events a year.
Texas Speedway is owned by SMI, the other big player in track events. SMI will
"push" their tracks a little harder to make money. I looked on their web site
and they have 4 weekends this year. The track is halfway between Dallas and Ft.
Worth which is now just one big city. So they have more people closer and they
have just 4 events this year.
I of course have no way of knowing, but unless your area is very close to a
major area so that an outdoor concert or wine festival is valid, it is two
weekend a year. So the people who are pushing this will act like politicians
and will lie and tell you all the things good things that the track can be used
for. In real life, usually only 2 weeks a years. The average total track
revenue for a race event is $150-$300 per person. For sold out 80,000 fans that
is $12,000,000 - $24,000.000 for the track on one weekend. For the 150,000 here
that is $24,000,000 to $48,000,000 for one weekend. I don't need a lot events
to make a big profit - plus add the TV revenue. Tax that and add hotels, car
rentals, food, etc and you can see why the politicians cannot turn it down.


A final comment...it's all well and good that the drivers, owners, and
crews like a nearby GA airport. However, the one day they probably WON'T
need it is race day. Which, of course, is the day it'd be shut down.

Actually raceday is the day they most need the air field. The sponsorship of a
major NASCAR team cost $15-20 million a year. Plus the sponsor will add another
$15-20 million a year in it own NASCAR associated ads. So for $30-40 million
the sponsors demand a lot. What they want is the drivers time for appearances.
So drivers will spend a great deal of time in the air. Someone else drives to
each track the $150,000 motor home each driver uses so they can be at events.
They will qualify on Friday and then that night attend a sponsor event. If the
event is not at the track, they fly out to the event and then back that night.
Same for Saturday. They sometimes get to stay home on Monday but then spend
several days flying to sponsor events. So, since they get to little time at
home, each drivers and others like the major owners, will get a police escort to
the nearest airfield, get in a GA plane or now private jets and fly out while
most of the fans are still leaving the track. Many of the fans who have the
means will fly in and then will rush to fly out on Sunday for work on Monday.
And now it is so specialized, the actual "over the wall" pit crew of tire
changers and gas men fly in on Saturday night or Sunday morning to work and then
fly back for other jobs on Sunday. The nearby airfields on Sunday look like an
aircraft carrier during Desert Storm or LaGuardia in New York. As I type this, I
think this may be more of a problem then the TSA. But during the race there are
a lot of planes to look at.


Ron Wanttaja

What you may want to do is go to NASCAR.COM and get a list of the racetracks.
Then go to the website of some of the tracks and look at the events. Try and
see how close are the nearest airports. I would try and find out how close the
track is to a major city. The closer the more likely it will have non-NASCAR
events. Then look then up and see if they controlled or uncontrolled. Then you
may look at the FAA site or somewhere and see how many TFR are issued each year
for each track. Either you will be less concerned - or will be better prepared
to fight.

Mike

Boelkowj wrote:
I don't get it.. this is an airplane newsgroup and you keep talking about
NASCAR.. Give me a break..

Larry

Then you are a moron and have not followed the thread.

Have you actually read the thread?

Boelkowj wrote:

I don't get it.. this is an airplane newsgroup and you keep talking about
NASCAR.. Give me a break..

Larry

--
Bruce A. Frank

No I haven't. But I suspect if you count the number of homebuilts tested per
year out of Arlington Airport I suspect you don't have much clout over NASCAR
folks.

Larry

This has nothing to do with home builders do you agree.

Larry

Problem is you guys up north have bad weather for flying and can't support the
sport for that reason. Simple..

Larry

In Boelkowj wrote:
This has nothing to do with home builders do you agree.

Larry

The site of one of the largest gatherings of homebuilt aircraft is under
threat by a proposed racetrack and you say that it has nothing to do
with homebuilders? WTF are you smoking?

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In Boelkowj wrote:
No I haven't. But I suspect if you count the number of homebuilts
tested per year out of Arlington Airport I suspect you don't have much
clout over NASCAR folks.

I suppose that makes it all right then.

----------------------------------------------------
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Unofficial Bearhawk FAQ website:
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