Future Club Training Gliders

On Sep 15, 6:54*am, John Smith wrote:
Am 15.09.10 01:13, schrieb John Cochrane:

I just talked to John Murray about other stuff, and he mentioned that
ASK 21 are actually remarkably easy to get right now. Our club
(chicago glider club) just bought a new ASK21, and it's a joy both to
fly and teach in.

I don't understand why someone would still buy an ASK21 today when you
can get a DG1000 or a Duo which offer *much* more performance for little
more money. And yes, they are perfectly suited for primary training.

I know they can and credit to places that are doing this, but I think
there is still a place for a slightly more "agricultural" primary
trainer. Especially if there is a training fleet to keep busy with
primary instruction. You can learn to fly power in a Bonanza but a
C172 with fixed gear and simpler systems is less likely to get a pilot
in trouble. I know you can get club versions of the DG-1000, with
fixed gear etc, but by the time I had a DG-1000 I'd want the retract
version and use it more XC.

It is unfortunate the some operations may end up in a very tough place
with the L13 issue and it comes at a time when the economy is bad.
Trying to contain costs is a good goal, but I worry that a lot of
clubs/operations in the USA are operating "on the wrong side of the
curve". i.e. focus on driving down to a minial cost - not working on
attracting people who are likely to stay around and fly XC, buy their
own gliders, etc. - that is helped by having a more modern training
fleet and focus on XC capable ships and XC instruction/mentoring to
get people going.

I look at what Morgan is doing at Avenal by having his Duo there and
that seems to be driving a lot more interest/activity in XC soaring by
pilots there. Or at Williams where you have sixteen year old line-boys
working their hours off and getting started flying XC in ASW-24s.
$100k divided by 20 people is $5k each. Scale for the right amount,
but even in tough financial times I'd still hope that type of funding
makes it possible to raise a pool to purchase a glass trainer. I know
it is not going to be possible everywhere.

BTW I have nothing against older gliders, many of them are just
*beautiful* and I'm glad to see them being flown and looked after.

Darryl

On Sep 15, 2:54*pm, John Smith wrote:
Am 15.09.10 01:13, schrieb John Cochrane:

I just talked to John Murray about other stuff, and he mentioned that
ASK 21 are actually remarkably easy to get right now. Our club
(chicago glider club) just bought a new ASK21, and it's a joy both to
fly and teach in.

I don't understand why someone would still buy an ASK21 today when you
can get a DG1000 or a Duo which offer *much* more performance for little
more money. And yes, they are perfectly suited for primary training.

Lasham bought a couple of DG1000s as all round trainers. However in
practice they are mostly only used for advanced cross-country
training. From a basic instructional point of view they are too
complicated (tail weights etc), too difficult to get in and out of,
and have awful ground handling (we have the 2 wheel version - the tail
weights a ton). They spin rather too well and lose a lot of height in
the process. We also have a couple of K21s which are great general
purpose gliders, but as basic trainers they are, if anything, too
docile and easy to fly, and won't spin with a normal weight male
student in the front seat. We still use ancient although slightly
updated K13s for most basic training. They do everything tolerably
well, although more performance would be nice.

Derek C

In article
,
bildan wrote:

On Sep 14, 12:44*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Sep 14, 9:47*am, RN wrote:

The current issues with the L-13 Blaniks has our club looking at
alternatives and developing a plan for the future training gliders we
will need.



For a training on a budget, it's really hard to beat a Ka-13 or Ka-7,
except that they have fairly small cockpits. We sold off our Ka-7
because about half the folks who came to us for training just could not
fit their legs under the panel and/or were too heavy. Still, that Ka-7
soldiers on in a commercial training operation today!

On Sep 14, 10:47*am, RN wrote:
The current issues with the L-13 Blaniks has our club looking at
alternatives and developing a plan for the future training gliders we
will need.

We would be very interested in other club's experience with other
trainers, and what you are using and planning to use in the future.

Our evaluation parameters include high useful load for heavy students
and instructors, ease and availability of parts for maintenance and
repair, *durability for student solo operations, and up front cost .

John

Texas Soaring Association near Dallas bought three ASK-21s, brand
new. Club instructors considered several other options, and chose the
21s over the PW-6 and others. We like them a lot, although they are
hard to spin without putting the spin ballast on the tail. They get a
lot of use and are holding up well. Previously, we had the Puchacz
and the Grobs. Both were satisfactory, but the Puchacz was a better
training aircraft. Downside to the Puchacz is that it is hard to
repair when something breaks on it and parts are damn near impossible
to find in the US.
Phil Umphres

Originally Posted by RN

The current issues with the L-13 Blaniks has our club looking at
alternatives and developing a plan for the future training gliders we
will need.

We would be very interested in other club's experience with other
trainers, and what you are using and planning to use in the future.

Our evaluation parameters include high useful load for heavy students
and instructors, ease and availability of parts for maintenance and
repair, durability for student solo operations, and up front cost .

John

As someone who not long ago finished glider training I can add this: I looked long and hard for an operation that did not use Schweizers. Reason: they are ugly & uncomfortable and just did not fit my idea what soaring is all about. Finally I found a place with a G103 and was happy. If you want to attract people, especially young people you'd better get some hot looking trainers, oh, and preferably some hot looking women. Otherwise you're dead in the water.....and continue projecting the imagine of soaring as an activity for those one step away from a retirement home.

"tienshanman" wrote in message
...

snip
As someone who not long ago finished glider training

Finished glider training? I've got my Silver C and still do training from
time to time. You never, ever finish learning in this game.

Originally Posted by Surfer![_2_]

"tienshanman" wrote in message
...

snip
As someone who not long ago finished glider training

Finished glider training? I've got my Silver C and still do training from
time to time. You never, ever finish learning in this game.

Of course, that goes without saying....By "finished" I obviously meant "basic" training. I humbly apologize to the old wise men of the sport for implying that one can ever finish....

On Sep 17, 12:18*am, tienshanman tienshanman.
wrote:
RN;740605 Wrote:

The current issues with the L-13 Blaniks has our club looking at
alternatives and developing a plan for the future training gliders we
will need.

We would be very interested in other club's experience with other
trainers, and what you are using and planning to use in the future.

Our evaluation parameters include high useful load for heavy students
and instructors, ease and availability of parts for maintenance and
repair, *durability for student solo operations, and up front cost .

John

As someone who not long ago finished glider training I can add this: I
looked long and hard for an operation that did not use Schweizers.
Reason: they are ugly & uncomfortable and just did not fit my idea what
soaring is all about. Finally I found a place with a G103 and *was
happy. If you want to attract people, especially young people you'd
better get some hot looking trainers, oh, and preferably some hot
looking women. Otherwise you're dead in the water.....and continue
projecting the imagine of soaring as an activity for those one step away
from a retirement home.

--
tienshanman

actually, those pilots "one step away from a retirement home" usually
fly the newest hottest gliders. cruel irony? perhaps.............all
those poor hot chicks out there have to reconsider their options eh?

Brad

On Sep 17, 9:24*am, Brad wrote:
On Sep 17, 12:18*am, tienshanman tienshanman.



wrote:
RN;740605 Wrote:

The current issues with the L-13 Blaniks has our club looking at
alternatives and developing a plan for the future training gliders we
will need.

We would be very interested in other club's experience with other
trainers, and what you are using and planning to use in the future.

Our evaluation parameters include high useful load for heavy students
and instructors, ease and availability of parts for maintenance and
repair, *durability for student solo operations, and up front cost ..

John

As someone who not long ago finished glider training I can add this: I
looked long and hard for an operation that did not use Schweizers.
Reason: they are ugly & uncomfortable and just did not fit my idea what
soaring is all about. Finally I found a place with a G103 and *was
happy. If you want to attract people, especially young people you'd
better get some hot looking trainers, oh, and preferably some hot
looking women. Otherwise you're dead in the water.....and continue
projecting the imagine of soaring as an activity for those one step away
from a retirement home.

--
tienshanman

actually, those pilots "one step away from a retirement home" usually
fly the newest hottest gliders. cruel irony? perhaps.............all
those poor hot chicks out there have to reconsider their options eh?

Brad

Nope you already missed them, they are hanging out with the cool hot
paraglider guys.

Darryl

Originally Posted by Darryl Ramm

On Sep 17, 9:24*am, Brad wrote:
On Sep 17, 12:18*am, tienshanman tienshanman.



wrote:
RN;740605 Wrote:

The current issues with the L-13 Blaniks has our club looking at
alternatives and developing a plan for the future training gliders we
will need.

We would be very interested in other club's experience with other
trainers, and what you are using and planning to use in the future.

Our evaluation parameters include high useful load for heavy students
and instructors, ease and availability of parts for maintenance and
repair, *durability for student solo operations, and up front cost ..

John

As someone who not long ago finished glider training I can add this: I
looked long and hard for an operation that did not use Schweizers.
Reason: they are ugly & uncomfortable and just did not fit my idea what
soaring is all about. Finally I found a place with a G103 and *was
happy. If you want to attract people, especially young people you'd
better get some hot looking trainers, oh, and preferably some hot
looking women. Otherwise you're dead in the water.....and continue
projecting the imagine of soaring as an activity for those one step away
from a retirement home.

--
tienshanman

actually, those pilots "one step away from a retirement home" usually
fly the newest hottest gliders. cruel irony? perhaps.............all
those poor hot chicks out there have to reconsider their options eh?

Brad

Nope you already missed them, they are hanging out with the cool hot
paraglider guys.

Darryl

That's true. One of the very many reasons paragliding has sucked the life blood out of hang gliding and soaring in sailplanes.....