Tow cars and trailers

On 22 May 2007 10:24:05 -0700, st4s03 wrote:

Can you imagine the change that would occur in our atmosphere if
millions of vehicles around the world would be burning Hydrogen and
producing water vapor as a by-product?

You mean like the millions of vehicles that are burning gasoline and
producing both water and CO2 right now? Water is the nicest combustion
product possible.

This vapor will be condensed at
some point and most likely just when you want to fly. Over-developing
sky and increase precipitation.

Yes, if you import the hydrogen from Mars. If you get it from this
planet, you extract it from compounds (like, say, water) and when you
burn it it goes back into compounds. Like, say, water.

Furthermore, we have about fity-four million square miles of ocean
surface evaporating water into the atmosphere...

rj

On Mon, 21 May 2007 18:47:48 +0100, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
[snip]


Possibly irrelevant, but I remember seeing a Scientific American article
back in the late 60s/early 70s on this topic. I forget what triggered it
(possibly a comment on a back to nature movement) but it pointed out
that even then it would be impossible to replace America's oil-powered
transport systems with horses because there wasn't the farm land in the
USA to feed the horses, let alone produce anything else.

That's not the only reason. The city of San Francisco spent a load of
money to install a cable-car transit system in the early 1870s. They
knew electric cars would be available in ten years, but SF couldn't
wait. Its horse population had grown to the point of depositing 55,000
gallons of horse **** on the streets per day, along with the
proportionate quantity of road apples. The constant wheel and foot
traffic mixed it up into a ghastly morass that lubricated the
cobblestones, causing the horses to slip and break legs. At one point
the city was shooting an average of one horse per day.

Other major cities were able to hold out until they could get electric
cars, because they didn't have San Francisco's steep hills, but they
still had stink and disease to deal with. Horse transport simply
becomes intolerable past a certain traffic density.

rj

Ralph,
Just having fun!
Tounge in cheek ;-)

On May 24, 9:01 am, Ralph Jones wrote:
On 22 May 2007 10:24:05 -0700, st4s03 wrote:

Can you imagine the change that would occur in our atmosphere if
millions of vehicles around the world would be burning Hydrogen and
producing water vapor as a by-product?

You mean like the millions of vehicles that are burning gasoline and
producing both water and CO2 right now? Water is the nicest combustion
product possible.

This vapor will be condensed at
some point and most likely just when you want to fly. Over-developing
sky and increase precipitation.

Yes, if you import the hydrogen from Mars. If you get it from this
planet, you extract it from compounds (like, say, water) and when you
burn it it goes back into compounds. Like, say, water.

Furthermore, we have about fity-four million square miles of ocean
surface evaporating water into the atmosphere...

rj

On 24 May 2007 09:18:38 -0700, st4s03 wrote:

Ralph,
Just having fun!
Tounge in cheek ;-)

Glad to hear that...mighty lot of folks out here would say that in all
seriousness...;-)

The Denver Post pnce printed a guest editorial by a guy claiming to be
a mechanical engineer who wanted to make H2-powered cars with an
auxiliary generator to produce current to electrolyze water to get the
H2, with O2 as a byproduct that would replenish the atmosphere.

rj

On May 21, 11:42 am, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
"Martin Gregorie" wrote in message

...





Bill Daniels wrote:
If you want to look at alternative liguid fuels for the existing fleet
consider Butanol (Butyl alcohol). It has about the same energy content
as gasolene, burns at the same air-fuel mixture and has an octane rating
of 94. It can be made from biomass at better net energy yeld than
ethanol. Since you can mix it with gasolene at any ratio with no changes
needed in the engines, it looks better to me than ethanol.

Butanol sounds like a good idea. I've seen puffs for methanol and ethanol
but no mention of butanol. I wonder why.

I mentioned solar or nuke driven industrial sources for any such fuel (and
quoted ethyl as an example) because I think that biofuel is too limited by
the availability of both arable land and water to replace oil-based fuels.

Possibly irrelevant, but I remember seeing a Scientific American article
back in the late 60s/early 70s on this topic. I forget what triggered it
(possibly a comment on a back to nature movement) but it pointed out that
even then it would be impossible to replace America's oil-powered
transport systems with horses because there wasn't the farm land in the
USA to feed the horses, let alone produce anything else. OK, horses are
not exactly efficient energy sources. Replace them with something more
efficient (biodiesel powered engines?) and factor in the increased energy
consumption after 40 years of economic growth and I think the argument
still holds.

--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org

I actually think that GM has a good idea in the "Volt". It's an electric
car with a bay into which you (or GM) can install an electricity source like
a genset (diesel or spark), a fuel cell stack or even more batteries. The
flexibility is the value added.

Pure electric vehicles are slowly emerging as quite possibly the final
answer. There has been rapid fire announcements of lithium ion battery
technology advancements in the key areas of energy density and charge time.
Toshiba and others have Lithium Polymer cells that can be fully charged in
less than 5 minutes and still last 20,000 recharge cycles. Charge time is
just as important as driving range with electrics with one offsetting the
other. If the vehicle can be recharged in 5 minutes at convienient
locations, who cares if it only goes 150 miles between charges. For serious
"off grid" driving, the Volt approach looks good.

The so called "hydrogen economy" is just bafflegab from the Bush
administration to delay any action. Hydrogen is not likely to be part of
the solution. An "electric economy" however is easy to imagine.
Electricity is extremely flexible. An electric vehicle can be slowly
recharged overnight at home or quickly at a charging station. The
electricity can come from almost any source.

My original thought is that even an electric could tow a glider trailer if
the trailer itself supplied some of the power. Imagine side boxes ahead and
behind each trailer wheel containing batteries and wheels containing
electric motors. The trailer then powers itself and the "tow" vehicle just
guides it.

Bill Daniels- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You might as well tow your trailer with horses as with an electric tow
vehicle (at least one that doesn't generate its own electricity), you
will get to your destination quicker. The energy density simply is not
there to do the job, and it won't be there in the far distant future.
Even a pure electric car with a 20 mile range is problematic:
1. A mid-size vehicle uses 0.2 - 0.4 KWhr per mile driven (not towing
anything!).
2. The average hybrid car's battery is 1.7KWhr.
3. A 20 mile range (boy, that will get you way down the road!)
requires a battery 6 times this size, with a weight of 200-300 lbs, a
200 mile range ups this to 2000-3000 lbs (the weight of the vehicle).
4. The additional weight requires more battery capacity to go the same
distance.
5. The cost of a 20-mile battery pack is $5000-7000, a 200-mile pack
is $50,000, but you need 3-4 of them do to the extra weight and having
some towing capacity (why not just buy a 2nd glider and leave it at
the destination - then you could bicycle there and not use any
electricity).

Check out http://www.advancedautobat.com/ for more information.

Tom

Asbjorn Hojmark wrote:

Many European cars rutinely do 35-45 MPG *on average* and
close to 50
MPG on a straight and level road. That's running on diesel,

Currently California and 4 other states
have emission standards that essentially
preclude diesel cars and light trucks.
That is going to change in the next few
years with advanced (and more expensive)
diesel technology.

--
Doug



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Asbjorn Hojmark wrote:
On Wed, 23 May 2007 10:43:54 GMT+5, (Doug
Hoffman) wrote:

Many European cars rutinely do 35-45 MPG *on average* and close to
50 MPG on a straight and level road. That's running on diesel,

Currently California and 4 other states have emission standards that
essentially preclude diesel cars and light trucks.

What emission are they measuring? Surely not CO2, which is typically
much lower than with gasoline for the same power. (At least on the
kind of diesel cars we use over here).

Particulate emissions. There are some new filters that should allow
some diesel cars to meet California standards in a year or two...

Marc

On May 24, 5:33 pm, Asbjorn Hojmark wrote:
On Wed, 23 May 2007 10:43:54 GMT+5, (Doug

Hoffman) wrote:
Many European cars rutinely do 35-45 MPG *on average* and close to
50 MPG on a straight and level road. That's running on diesel,
Currently California and 4 other states have emission standards that
essentially preclude diesel cars and light trucks.

What emission are they measuring? Surely not CO2, which is typically
much lower than with gasoline for the same power. (At least on the
kind of diesel cars we use over here).

Oxides of nitrogen (NOx) is the problem compound for diesels. New
catalytic aftertreatment technology will address that.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...78/ai_53476149

Effective diesel particulate filters (DPFs) already exist.


Actually, the state of California has tried to regulate CO2 emissions
(and may still be trying, I'm not sure):

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2004...kers_chal.html

Regards,

-doug

What are the smallest reliable diesels being offered
in USA/Europe and not necessarily capable of towing?


At 20:24 25 May 2007, Asbjorn Hojmark wrote:
On Thu, 24 May 2007 14:47:14 -0700, Marc Ramsey
wrote:

What emission are they measuring? Surely not CO2,
which is typically
much lower than with gasoline for the same power.
(At least on the
kind of diesel cars we use over here).

Particulate emissions. There are some new filters
that should allow
some diesel cars to meet California standards in a
year or two...

Oh, many (most?) European diesel cars have that too.
I believe it'll
be a requirement in all of EU soon (?), but at least
here in Denmark
it's still an option.

-A
--
http://www.hojmark.org/soaring.html

Nyal,

I think the smallest diesels in America are the ones
from VW. I'm not sure if NEW ones are being shipped
at this time, but used Beetles, Golfs, Jettas, and,
I think, Passats, can be found with the TDI (Turbo
Diesel Injection??) four cylinder diesel engine. I
know one person with a four door Golf and another with
a Jetta and they both like them.

For a while, Jeep did offer a turbo diesel in their
Liberty. It was a Mercedes 4 cylinder turbo diesel,
I think.

I think Honda will offer their in-house designed four
cylinder turbo diesel in a couple of years. It's available
now in Europe where you can buy it in an Accord. It
would be very interesting if they would offer it in
the Accord and CR-V here in America.

My current Accord, which serves as my everyday car
and crew car (it's the only car I have) has 193,000
miles on it now. I hope it lasts until the diesels
get here!

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

At 21:36 25 May 2007, Nyal Williams wrote:
What are the smallest reliable diesels being offered
in USA/Europe and not necessarily capable of towing?


At 20:24 25 May 2007, Asbjorn Hojmark wrote:
On Thu, 24 May 2007 14:47:14 -0700, Marc Ramsey
wrote:

What emission are they measuring? Surely not CO2,
which is typically
much lower than with gasoline for the same power.
(At least on the
kind of diesel cars we use over here).

Particulate emissions. There are some new filters
that should allow
some diesel cars to meet California standards in a
year or two...

Oh, many (most?) European diesel cars have that too.
I believe it'll
be a requirement in all of EU soon (?), but at least
here in Denmark
it's still an option.

-A
--
http://www.hojmark.org/soaring.html