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#11
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Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?
On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 5:54:23 PM UTC-4, Charlie Quebec wrote:
Outlanding training is mandatory before XC here, how can you get to,be a CFI and not be well versed in field landings. A well conducted outlanding is quite safe. I was a CFII/MEI, not a CFIG. The closest we ever came to "landout" practice in powered planes was about 500 ft AGL. |
#12
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Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?
On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 2:00:05 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
Hi all. First off, I was a fairly experienced CFI and Chief Flight Instructor with a great record, and am now a Commercial Glider Pilot, so I'm not a total newbie in the glider world. I realize that my initial question may be obvious to some, but here in South Florida, we NEVER land out in fields (unless there is an emergency, of course). We only land out at one other airport, and even that is quite rare. The question has two parts: 1. Are off-airport landouts common? I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles, in which he essentially says that if you are not landing out fairly often, you are not flying aggressively enough in your contests. Is he meaning landing out in unknown fields? or just at known-to-be-safe fields and airports? The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range. 2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit? The reason I ask is that I've been flying my glider fairly regularly for the past few years. I fly quite conservatively (compared to what I read in Soaring magazine anyway) and have NEVER damaged it, not even slightly. I am retired and not rich, and so when I think about how much it would cost to get even slight damage fixed, I hesitate to even contemplate doing cross-country flights, due to the risk of damage during landout, but more so due to the risk of my insurance company upping my premiums or canceling my policy altogether. If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price. Tom Knauff, in his book After Solo, recommends specific and thorough landout training for the reason he states (p 122): "During the 1987 Sports Class Nationals, more than 30% of the pilots entered in the contest, damaged their ships during off field landings!" But as far as I know (Soaring magazine ads, webinars, this forum), no one is teaching such a course. So without confidence in landing out without ANY damage, is cross-country flying thus a rich man's sport? In New Zealand landouts are very common. I'd say something like one a week at my club, on average, and a lot more during a contest. In the summer when most of the cross country flying is done it's pretty safe. Fields from which a crop of hay has been taken within the last month or so are common, extremely easy to spot from the air, and unlikely to have any nasty surprises. While simply looking for something when you need it usually works out, it's a good idea to scout out some known-good fields in advance. If you have somewhere you know is ok every 20 or 30 km then it's hard to get caught short.. Other local pilots will already have their own list, and many clubs publish consolidated lists, complete with GPS coordinates, notes, and maybe even photos. Driving around and looking at them from ground level (or grabbing a Cessna or motor glider and making some low approaches) before you start flying cross country in a new area is not a stupid idea. Where a field is big enough to aero-tow out of and the landowner is cooperative, my club from time to time takes early solo and near solo pilots and a couple of gliders there for a day away from the landmarks of the home field. You can see a couple of practice approaches into one such field (an aerial topdresing strip, as is common in NZ) in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJapUCeDeOI |
#13
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Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?
On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 8:38:10 PM UTC-7, Bruce Hoult wrote:
While simply looking for something when you need it usually works out, it's a good idea to scout out some known-good fields in advance. If you have somewhere you know is ok every 20 or 30 km then it's hard to get caught short. Other local pilots will already have their own list, and many clubs publish consolidated lists, complete with GPS coordinates, notes, and maybe even photos. Driving around and looking at them from ground level (or grabbing a Cessna or motor glider and making some low approaches) before you start flying cross country in a new area is not a stupid idea. +1 on scouting fields ahead of time. Know what the crops are and what they look like from the air. I failed to do this at one contest and it cost me a broken tail boom - my only serious outlanding damage in 40 years of racing.. At a western US contest site I fly frequently the task area is huge and there are lots of dodgy spots. I've scouted and marked in my waypoint database 45-50 fields, dry lakes, and roads (without highway markers). Some based on Google maps and street view, but many of the more important ones by driving up to several hourt out of the way to scout on foot. I also try to scout as many fields in the database as I can from the air when flying, regardless of whether I'm in imminent danger of landing. It comes in handy. I remember one contest day in particular where I glided through pretty dead air for 70 miles before catching a 7-knot thermal 500' above a a little ridge. The last 20-25 miles of the glide was unlandable terrain. I had marked in the database the first group of cultivated fields in a valley 1500' or so below the ridge that generated the thermal. I never would've gone for it without that knowledge and the field programmed into the glide computer. Fields can have surprises so it's important to know the local environment, particularly in terms of cultivation, but also in terms of meadows and roadways. Some places the options are pretty good and some places are no-go. Definitely don't land with the gators. ;-) Andy Blackburn 9B |
#15
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Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?
Air Sailing has a Cross-Country camp each Spring, with lectures and field trips addressing this risk. Well worth flying it. You can potentially secure a ship for the week by joining the Nevada Soaring Association, or get a rental from Minden (more expensive).
If you fly conservatively, you will always have some place you'd be happy to land on in range. For me this included the Miccosukee HQ parking lot for the 1-26 - didn't need it, flew past LaBelle. I have taken many roadtrips to look for good fields and stretches of wide, quiet roads without powerlines. Some of my landouts have been in fields that were nicer than airports. Landing out will not win the day, so the quote you bring up needs massaging.. |
#16
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Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?
On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 2:00:05 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote:
Hi all. First off, I was a fairly experienced CFI and Chief Flight Instructor with a great record, and am now a Commercial Glider Pilot, so I'm not a total newbie in the glider world. I realize that my initial question may be obvious to some, but here in South Florida, we NEVER land out in fields (unless there is an emergency, of course). We only land out at one other airport, and even that is quite rare. The question has two parts: 1. Are off-airport landouts common? I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles, in which he essentially says that if you are not landing out fairly often, you are not flying aggressively enough in your contests. Is he meaning landing out in unknown fields? or just at known-to-be-safe fields and airports? The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range. 2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit? The reason I ask is that I've been flying my glider fairly regularly for the past few years. I fly quite conservatively (compared to what I read in Soaring magazine anyway) and have NEVER damaged it, not even slightly. I am retired and not rich, and so when I think about how much it would cost to get even slight damage fixed, I hesitate to even contemplate doing cross-country flights, due to the risk of damage during landout, but more so due to the risk of my insurance company upping my premiums or canceling my policy altogether. If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price. Tom Knauff, in his book After Solo, recommends specific and thorough landout training for the reason he states (p 122): "During the 1987 Sports Class Nationals, more than 30% of the pilots entered in the contest, damaged their ships during off field landings!" But as far as I know (Soaring magazine ads, webinars, this forum), no one is teaching such a course. So without confidence in landing out without ANY damage, is cross-country flying thus a rich man's sport? Charles "Ben" Ethridge As a rule areas with plenty of farm fields offer plenty of "safer" choices. Also as a rule landing on a public airport should always be the first choice as we must assume that they are kept to a standard and are safe. Private airports not so. The east coast tends to have plenty of safer farm fields where the west coat primarily the desert - has few. We had spent a tremendous amount of time out here (the desert) to identify safe, safer or barely safe alternates to airports. Just landing out in the desert Willie-Nellie may reduce your glider to the equalent of matchsticks and who knows what to your body. Just my nickel's worth.... |
#17
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Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?
Roads are to be avoided unless you have specifically surveyed some particular stretch in advance. Besides cars, problems are signs and posts and wires and berms and parallel wire fencing that can easily become deadly if you ground loop into it.
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#18
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Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?
On 5/27/2019 10:21 AM, 6PK wrote:
On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 2:00:05 PM UTC-7, Charles Ethridge wrote: Hi all. Snip... I realize that my initial question may be obvious to some, but here in South Florida, we NEVER land out in fields (unless there is an emergency, of course). We only land out at one other airport, and even that is quite rare. The question has two parts: 1. Are off-airport landouts common? I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles, in which he essentially says that if you are not landing out fairly often, you are not flying aggressively enough in your contests. Is he meaning landing out in unknown fields? or just at known-to-be-safe fields and airports? The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range. 2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit? Snip... Charles "Ben" Ethridge Snip... Also as a rule landing on a public airport should always be the first choice as we must assume that they are kept to a standard and are safe. Lotsa sensible info/food-for-thought aheada my post. Arguably, it can all be boiled down to: "YMMV!" Some years ago my club had a (slightly) busted G-103 due to a landing on a (public) A/P 9 miles away from the club's (public) A/P. Ye helpful glider pilot, wanting to be a polite sort, opted to land in the grass beside the (long, wide) runway...but made the (further?) mistake of opting for a high-speed taxi across a taxiway "for convenience's sake." It mighta been OK, but for the 2" lip marking the transition from grass to concrete taxiway... Point being, that *every* landing (and site) has potential plane-threatening risks, and it's up to Joe Pilot to sensibly assess them *before* assuming all is well...e.g. I've seen lighted (public) airports of narrow pavement and 15-meter-narrow-ship-threatening lights. I've also eyeballs-on experience with WAY too many 15-meter-span ships after tangling with runway edge lights (most NOT adjacent narrow runways) for various reasons. In much - not all - of the general region of the Rocky Mountain west in which most of my glider time was gathered, plowed/disked fields generally offer fewer overt risks than even most public airports. Private airports not so. The east coast tends to have plenty of safer farm fields where the west coat primarily the desert - has few. We had spent a tremendous amount of time out here (the desert) to identify safe, safer or barely safe alternates to airports. Just landing out in the desert Willie-Nellie may reduce your glider to the equalent of matchsticks and who knows what to your body. Just my nickel's worth.... Bob W. P.S. The worst damages I've inflicted while landing gliders happened on paved runways: 1) a collapsed gear on rollout (No! Really! Weak gas strut, apparently...ultimately enhanced my "practical fiberglass skills"); and 2) a weed-induced ground loop (pilot stupidity...did minor tailwheel damage to a G-103; further-exercised previously-gained fiberglass skills). P.P.S. +1000 on others' previous "Kids, don't do this!" warnings relative to landing on roads. The idea of doing so is (apparently) strongly seductive to pilots in general, despite years-of evidence/beaucoup-examples that bad outcomes are the norm. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com |
#19
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Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?
I know two glider pilots who spotted a hangar, windsock and adjacent runway. On short final the runway looked a little short necessitating good speed control and spot landing skills.
They landed on RC strips. |
#20
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Are off-airport landouts common and/or dangerous?
On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 4:00:05 PM UTC-5, Charles Ethridge wrote:
Hi all. First off, I was a fairly experienced CFI and Chief Flight Instructor with a great record, and am now a Commercial Glider Pilot, so I'm not a total newbie in the glider world. I realize that my initial question may be obvious to some, but here in South Florida, we NEVER land out in fields (unless there is an emergency, of course). We only land out at one other airport, and even that is quite rare. The question has two parts: 1. Are off-airport landouts common? I've now heard/read two different philosophies on this. One is from Garret Willat's articles, in which he essentially says that if you are not landing out fairly often, you are not flying aggressively enough in your contests. Is he meaning landing out in unknown fields? or just at known-to-be-safe fields and airports? The opposite philosophy I THOUGHT I heard in David Lessnick's great webinar last week was that one should ALWAYS be landing out at airports and never on roads or unknown fields....or at least have a KNOWN-TO-BE-SAFE field or airport within your glide range. 2. When landing out, are your gliders often damaged, even just a little bit? The reason I ask is that I've been flying my glider fairly regularly for the past few years. I fly quite conservatively (compared to what I read in Soaring magazine anyway) and have NEVER damaged it, not even slightly. I am retired and not rich, and so when I think about how much it would cost to get even slight damage fixed, I hesitate to even contemplate doing cross-country flights, due to the risk of damage during landout, but more so due to the risk of my insurance company upping my premiums or canceling my policy altogether. If my glider is totaled by my insurance company, I doubt that I could afford to get another one like it, since I got a very good glider at a great price. Tom Knauff, in his book After Solo, recommends specific and thorough landout training for the reason he states (p 122): "During the 1987 Sports Class Nationals, more than 30% of the pilots entered in the contest, damaged their ships during off field landings!" But as far as I know (Soaring magazine ads, webinars, this forum), no one is teaching such a course. So without confidence in landing out without ANY damage, is cross-country flying thus a rich man's sport? Charles "Ben" Ethridge In over 30 years of cross country soaring, I have probably 40 off airport landings. Never a scratch on me or the glider. However, nothing beats seeing for yourself: Do a search on Youtube for "glider outlanding". Lots of videos of gliders landing in farm fields. You will see that most glider landings away from the airport are absolutely no big deal at all. You will find a couple of videos of landings that did not go so well due to poor field selection or a lack of fields to select from. The lesson is that off-airport landings need be no more hazardous than on-airport landings. It's all in having reasonable fields within reach and knowing how to choose an appropriate field. |
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