How do controllers coordinate clearances through sectors?

I'm curious, how does one controller secure a direct clearance through
mulitple other controllers' areas? Sometimes it seems that after a
handoff the receiving controller doesn't know what your clearance is
(but certainly must have that area available for you).

As a typical example, I was flying home from Monterey last night and,
after passing the San Jose arrival area, received an updated
clearance, direct to my destination. Two controllers later, the
controllers asked me if I was direct to the VOR. I said no, I'm direct
home.
I'm curious how the issuing controller is able to ensure a clearance
all the way home direct. And how is it that a receiving controller
doesn't know what a plane's current clearance is? Doesn't this all
make it hard to plan conflict free traffic???

Do controller's "own" their own areas or does the computer? Can the
computer approve a clearance through a controller's area w/o his
acknowledgement? Does a controller need the computer to approve what
he does in his area?

-Robert

I don't pretend to be an expert, but my educated guess is that each
controller is interested only in his/her own airspace and doesn't really
care about what happens after you are handed off to the next sector.

Bob Gardner

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm curious, how does one controller secure a direct clearance through
mulitple other controllers' areas? Sometimes it seems that after a
handoff the receiving controller doesn't know what your clearance is
(but certainly must have that area available for you).

As a typical example, I was flying home from Monterey last night and,
after passing the San Jose arrival area, received an updated
clearance, direct to my destination. Two controllers later, the
controllers asked me if I was direct to the VOR. I said no, I'm direct
home.
I'm curious how the issuing controller is able to ensure a clearance
all the way home direct. And how is it that a receiving controller
doesn't know what a plane's current clearance is? Doesn't this all
make it hard to plan conflict free traffic???

Do controller's "own" their own areas or does the computer? Can the
computer approve a clearance through a controller's area w/o his
acknowledgement? Does a controller need the computer to approve what
he does in his area?

-Robert

On Mar 26, 2:02 pm, "Bob Gardner" wrote:
I don't pretend to be an expert, but my educated guess is that each
controller is interested only in his/her own airspace and doesn't really
care about what happens after you are handed off to the next sector.


But the question is, does he care about clearances through his
airspace issued by other controllers? And, does he know what
clearances aircraft have that enter his airspace?

-Robert

Well, he has a flight strip with the full clearance on it (or in some cases an
electronic flight strip -- ZMP is in the process of conversion.)

If you are getting vectors, he may not have the vector though. I don't believe
that the automated handoff has any facility for passing the vector information,
although part of the data tag in a handoff (from Center to a TRACON for example)
can indicate the runway that the flight is being vectored for.

I just spent 3 hours plugged in at several positions in the MSP TRACON and one
of the things I learned is that when you check in with a new controller and have
been getting vectors they like you to include your assigned heading. For
example, "Cherokee November blah blah blah is level at 7 thousand, heading zero
two zero" and not just "Cherokee November blah blah blah is level at 7 thousand"
which is what I had been doing.

Another interesting thing I learned was that the TRACON radar doesn't show the
little vector that indicates direction of flight like the Center radars do.
There's just the target dot and the data block. So you can sin big time on your
heading and, if you don't sin too long, the controller will never know. At MSP
anyway.

Some of the controllers will undoubtedly chime in here.

On 3/26/2007 4:05 PM, Robert M. Gary wrote the following:
On Mar 26, 2:02 pm, "Bob Gardner" wrote:
I don't pretend to be an expert, but my educated guess is that each
controller is interested only in his/her own airspace and doesn't really
care about what happens after you are handed off to the next sector.


But the question is, does he care about clearances through his
airspace issued by other controllers? And, does he know what
clearances aircraft have that enter his airspace?

-Robert

Mitty wrote:


If you are getting vectors, he may not have the vector though.


The previous controller is required to coordinate that.


I don't
believe that the automated handoff has any facility for passing the
vector information, although part of the data tag in a handoff (from
Center to a TRACON for example) can indicate the runway that the flight
is being vectored for.


The center has no control over my data tag. The center does not vector
to a runway, that is an approach controls job.




Another interesting thing I learned was that the TRACON radar doesn't
show the little vector that indicates direction of flight like the
Center radars do.


That's because center controllers are retarded and wouldn't know which
way the little airplanes are moving if the computer doesn't tell them.

"Newps" wrote in message . ..

Mitty wrote:

Another interesting thing I learned was that the TRACON radar doesn't
show the little vector that indicates direction of flight like the
Center radars do.

That's because center controllers are retarded and wouldn't know which
way the little airplanes are moving if the computer doesn't tell them.


ROTFL! Good zinger, Newps.

On 3/26/2007 9:28 PM, Newps wrote the following:

Mitty wrote:

If you are getting vectors, he may not have the vector though.

The previous controller is required to coordinate that.


My experience is limited to sitting with MSP and ZMP controllers but I am sure I
saw cases where the handoff was automated and there was no talk on the
telephone. Possibly these are standardized routes where everyone knows what the
vector is. Or is there a way this info would have been coded into the data tag
& I just didn't notice?


I don't
believe that the automated handoff has any facility for passing the
vector information, although part of the data tag in a handoff (from
Center to a TRACON for example) can indicate the runway that the
flight is being vectored for.

The center has no control over my data tag. The center does not vector
to a runway, that is an approach controls job.


Possibly it is different at MSP. When I was sitting at the north arrivals
position the data tags on the targets coming from Center were already marked for
the runway. "V3R" or something like that, indicating that the flight was headed
to 30 right. Possibly there is an LOA where Center picks the runway/approach
gate based on the direction the flight is coming from, then adds the tag. But
it was definitely there when the target began to flash, before Approach took the
handoff.


Another interesting thing I learned was that the TRACON radar doesn't
show the little vector that indicates direction of flight like the
Center radars do.

That's because center controllers are retarded and wouldn't know which
way the little airplanes are moving if the computer doesn't tell them.


So, you work at a TRACON, right?

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message oups.com...
On Mar 26, 2:02 pm, "Bob Gardner" wrote:
I don't pretend to be an expert, but my educated guess is that each
controller is interested only in his/her own airspace and doesn't really
care about what happens after you are handed off to the next sector.


But the question is, does he care about clearances through his
airspace issued by other controllers? And, does he know what
clearances aircraft have that enter his airspace?

-Robert


I think there's some coordination that we pilots don't see.
Occasionally I go from central Ohio to northern Minnesota via
FWA OSH AUW BJI, which narrowly skirts some special-use airspaces.
One Sunday morning before reaching Ft Wayne, a ZID controller
asked me if I'd like to go direct Bemidji.
I answered, "Yes, but they usually won't let me do that."
Her reply: "It's not busy this morning. I think I can work it out for you."
And she did. And I thanked her for that.

Robert M. Gary wrote:



But the question is, does he care about clearances through his
airspace issued by other controllers?



The clearance is on the strip. If it's different the previous
controller is required to coordinate.


And, does he know what
clearances aircraft have that enter his airspace?

That's a requirement of the previous controller.

I used to handle that by saying to the new controller "BuzzBomb 234X, 7000
feet, on a vector." A previous controller can't issue an instruction that
has any effect in a subsequent sector, to the best of my knowledge, and the
"new" controller can do whatever s/he needs to do without regard for what
the previous controller did or said.

Bob Gardner

"Robert M. Gary" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Mar 26, 2:02 pm, "Bob Gardner" wrote:
I don't pretend to be an expert, but my educated guess is that each
controller is interested only in his/her own airspace and doesn't really
care about what happens after you are handed off to the next sector.


But the question is, does he care about clearances through his
airspace issued by other controllers? And, does he know what
clearances aircraft have that enter his airspace?

-Robert