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#11
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TOW PLANE Accident
...and another question: why do so many YouTube videos show the
glider pilot on tow NOT holding the release knob? In fact it's hard to find a video where the glider pilot does hold the release throughout the tow! In a flapped machine that might require a flap change during the initial stages of the launch it's understandable, perhaps for a few seconds, but even after the flap change no one ever seems to hold the release knob. In the dim and distant past when I was taught aerotows they was certain to be very loud angry noises from the rear seat if one let go of the yellow knob. Has something changed in the instructor manual? Dave Walsh |
#12
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TOW PLANE Accident
On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:02:56 +0000, Dave Walsh wrote:
..and another question: why do so many YouTube videos show the glider pilot on tow NOT holding the release knob? In fact it's hard to find a video where the glider pilot does hold the release throughout the tow! In a flapped machine that might require a flap change during the initial stages of the launch it's understandable, perhaps for a few seconds, but even after the flap change no one ever seems to hold the release knob. In the dim and distant past when I was taught aerotows they was certain to be very loud angry noises from the rear seat if one let go of the yellow knob. Has something changed in the instructor manual? Dave Walsh Agreed. Two seaters or single seaters and winching or aerotowing, when I'm in control my left hand is holding the yellow knob from 'taking up slack' to release. That's what I was taught and that's what I do. No reason to do otherwise in our club two-seaters and Juniors or my Libelle. My only exception has been when moving flaps from negative to zero when the ailerons bite in an ASW-20 on aero tow, but even then its hand back on yellow knob right away. -- Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org |
#13
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TOW PLANE Accident
Take off/departure accidents seem very preventable. I've made it my job to work on such prevention at my club and it has, at times, caused me to be unpopular. Checklist discipline & cockpit discipline at both ends of the rope save lives. Do it. Let's see if we can get through 2019 with fewer than our running average of 6 USA gliding related fatalities. Evan Ludeman / T8 Snip... I commend you for sending the message to your club members, I think I will have a sign made that says, Don't Kill Your Tow Pilot, and place it in plain view in the hangar. I am sure someone will ask the stupid question, "What Does That Mean"! My first thought-betting-nickel upon reading the NTSB report was, "Stupidly-preventable-never-shoulda-happened-PIC-assisted-fatality." Lotsa other thoughts, of course (e.g. Glad I'm not that instructor *regardless* of actual reason(s) for the crash [feel free to invoke the ever-ready 'age' rationale, here]. Thanks, NTSB, for the seasonal timeliness of the reminder! Etc.) And at the risk of being labeled a Safety Nazi, post that sign in the hangar! Anyone who seriously asks, "What does that mean?" isn't asking a stupid question. Others? Well, the continuing, sad, arguably-entirely-preventable, deplorable history of tuggees killing tuggIES isn't a club anyone with an ounce of common sense will want to join. In any event, surely this topic is a discussion that should never be far from active awareness in every glider pilot's mind... Bob W. --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com |
#14
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TOW PLANE Accident
I have a long talk with my students about doing nothing else during the first 1000' of the tow except focus on the tow plane, and emergency options. Then, during the first 1000' I ask them to toggle the radio. Then I YELL at them for doing it, and we have another long discussion during post flight about killing tow pilots. I repeat this until they do nothing except focus on the tow plane, and emergence options.
Also, I disagree with holding the release during tow. Turbulence can cause a premature termination of the tow if you are holding the release. Boggs |
#15
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TOW PLANE Accident
I don't hang onto the release during tow.
I never taught to hang onto the release during tow. In glass ships, we have a looped rope tied to the release and laid across our thigh to make a quick release easier. Why no holding the release? Many things..... A sneeze can pull it Turbulence can pull it Something sudden (like a bee/wasp flying around) can pull it You do your thing, I'll do mine. ;-) |
#16
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TOW PLANE Accident
Going back to the original purpose of this posting (help finding a towplane), there is a '76 Pawnee 235 for sale in Canada set up as a sprayer. Low time since overhaul. Expensive. Listed on Barnstormers.
Good luck. ROY |
#17
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TOW PLANE Accident
On Thursday, February 21, 2019 at 9:15:04 AM UTC-5, Dave Walsh wrote:
..and another question: why do so many YouTube videos show the glider pilot on tow NOT holding the release knob? In fact it's hard to find a video where the glider pilot does hold the release throughout the tow! In a flapped machine that might require a flap change during the initial stages of the launch it's understandable, perhaps for a few seconds, but even after the flap change no one ever seems to hold the release knob. In the dim and distant past when I was taught aerotows they was certain to be very loud angry noises from the rear seat if one let go of the yellow knob. Has something changed in the instructor manual? Dave Walsh Hanging on the release during aero tow is a bad practice. There's a newspaper article from 6 or 8 years ago featuring an unhappy glider pilot sitting in the wreckage of his Discus too high up in a sycamore tree to do anything other than wait for help. Yep, hung on the release, big bump, popped off much too low to do anything other than pick the tree he wanted to crash into. That one's in the ntsb database if you want to look it up. New York state. Hand touching, but not grasping the release is acceptable. Hand touching release at beginning of take off roll is desirable, especially if without a wing runner. A lot of ships place other demands on left hand. Winching is a completely different game. In a properly run winching op, an inadvertent release should never be an emergency, but a dropped wing is immediately life threatening, hence hand on the release is the norm. It's a fact of life that in many aero towing operations, an inadvertent release at 50 - 150' will be an emergency. best, Evan |
#18
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TOW PLANE Accident
At 14:30 21 February 2019, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 14:02:56 +0000, Dave Walsh wrote: ..and another question: why do so many YouTube videos show the glider pilot on tow NOT holding the release knob? In fact it's hard to find a video where the glider pilot does hold the release throughout the tow! In a flapped machine that might require a flap change during the initial stages of the launch it's understandable, perhaps for a few seconds, but even after the flap change no one ever seems to hold the release knob. In the dim and distant past when I was taught aerotows they was certain to be very loud angry noises from the rear seat if one let go of the yellow knob. Has something changed in the instructor manual? Dave Walsh Agreed. Two seaters or single seaters and winching or aerotowing, when I'm in control my left hand is holding the yellow knob from 'taking up slack' to release. That's what I was taught and that's what I do. No reason to do otherwise in our club two-seaters and Juniors or my Libelle. My only exception has been when moving flaps from negative to zero when the ailerons bite in an ASW-20 on aero tow, but even then its hand back on yellow knob right away. -- Martin | martin at you need an extended release cable or a piece of line on it so you can hook it over your hand. Can't change flap setting otherwise,and you can get in a position with the stick hard over where you can't get to the handle in discus/ventus type layout. Gregorie | gregorie dot org |
#19
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TOW PLANE Accident
I have never regretted my decision to retire from towing.
Recently a good friend started to tow and he asked me for advice.Â* I told him, "Don't let them kill you!Â* Stay alert and release the glider at the first sign that the pilot is not in control of the glider." On 2/21/2019 1:52 AM, Jim White wrote: I am always concerned when I see a camera in the cockpit. The temptation to be film director as well as pilot is too great. We are only able to apply full focus to one task at a time. Especially important at critical points of the flight like the tow, thermalling, circuit, and landing. At Booker we had a bad accident when a passenger's camera was dropped in the works. I will not fly passengers holding cameras. If this accident is as we suspect, then this was totally avoidable and there would be one more tuggie about. Jim -- Dan, 5J |
#20
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TOW PLANE Accident
On 2/21/2019 10:13 AM, Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot) wrote:
I don't hang onto the release during tow. I never taught to hang onto the release during tow. I wasn't taught to hold the release during tow, and I don't teach that to my students. You are more far likely to cause an accident that way (through PTT) than to ever prevent one. That said! Every glider pilot should give serious thought to the position of the left hand during (especially) early tow. Depending on your glider and its cockpit ergonomics, the answer will not always be the same. Myself, particularly in 2-place gliders, I often have my closed fist firmly behind the spoiler handle. (Never with fingers wrapped around it, because that could also lead to a PTT) This ensure that the spoilers can't accidentally open, while at the same time anchoring my hand near the release so that I can instantly grab it if necessary. YMMV By all means, let's do whatever it takes to keep our tow pilots alive! Vaughn --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com |
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