Glider Winch Manufacturers or Plans to make???

On Jul 14, 6:26 am, Derek Copeland
wrote:
About the only similarity between a Skylaunch winch and a Gerhlein is that
they both use V8 gasoline engines with an automatic gearbox. The Skylaunch
has benefitted from 40 years of development, is well designed and properly
engineered, and is built to be heavy enough that it cannot be pulled into
the air or toppled over by heavy modern GRP two seater training gliders,
unlike the little Gerhlein.

Bill Daniels' argument is like saying that the latest Ford automobiles
are no better than a 1920's Model T because they share the same basic
components!

In Europe Skylaunch winches are considered to be state of the art, and a
well proven design. They are often bought by clubs in preference to the
stepless diesel-hydraulic and electric winches favoured by Bill. The
latter are in theory better, but are considerably more expensive and
don't work any better in practice. Economics and proven reliability do
come into the argument as to which design to choose!

The current manufacturers of glider winches are Skylaunch (UK), Tost
(Germany), MEL (Holland), Hydrostart (Holland), Herkules (Czech Republic),
Electrowinch (Germany), Egger (Germany), Integrale (Germany), Supacat (UK),
plus the two US designs described below which (as far as I am aware) are
both still under development. A quick 'google' should find you all the
relevant web sites.

Derek Copeland

At 13:33 13 July 2008, Bill Daniels wrote:



The skylaunch is a cosmetic update of the 1960's US Gerhlein winches and
suffers from the same major shortcomings. If you still like it, save
$50k
-
$75k by spending a couple of thousand for an old Gerhlein and fix it up.

If you'd like a modern, state of the art winch, take a look at these
from
US
winch buiders:

http://www.romansdesign.com/
and
http://www.hydrowinch.com

Bill Daniels

The Skylaunch is indeed simple engineering - deliberately so. IMHO
the two clever things that Skylaunch did we

firstly, to realise that the torque curve and response to load
characteristics of the GM V8 gasoline/lpg engine are more suited to
the throttle-limiter method of setting the power of the winch (for
glider type and wind component) than are the characterisitics of the
typical non-electronically controlled large diesel engine.

secondly, to work out the appropriate throttle stop settings for all
the likely gliders and wind components.

John Galloway

Ian wrote:
On 14 Jul, 00:48, Marc Ramsey wrote:

Or, if you value your time at more than $5/hour, you can simply buy a
Skylaunch at some level of completion and finish it off with locally
sourced components.

I thought Skylaunch - being sensible people - would sell neither
winches nor plans in the US. Product liability and all that.

They've been advertising in Soaring magazine for a year now, and in face
to face discussion indicated that they'd be happy to sell us anything
from a single component to a complete winch...

On 14 Jul, 15:55, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Ian wrote:
On 14 Jul, 00:48, Marc Ramsey wrote:

Or, if you value your time at more than $5/hour, you can simply buy a
Skylaunch at some level of completion and finish it off with locally
sourced components.

I thought Skylaunch - being sensible people - would sell neither
winches nor plans in the US. Product liability and all that.

They've been advertising in Soaring magazine for a year now, and in face
to face discussion indicated that they'd be happy to sell us anything
from a single component to a complete winch...

I am corrected. Thank you.

Ian

At 09:41 14 July 2008, Tony Clark wrote:

I still await detailed clarification regarding the Skylaunch
"shortcomings" with much anticipation!

Don't worry Tony! I am pretty sure that we are about to get a load of guf
from Bill Daniels about gear changes, torque multiplication, tension logs
and tension spikes, with dark hints that the latter are somehow dangerous,
but without any hard quantitative evidence or clarification as to why!

Derek Copeland

At 18:11 14 July 2008, Derek Copeland wrote:
At 09:41 14 July 2008, Tony Clark wrote:

I still await detailed clarification regarding the Skylaunch
"shortcomings" with much anticipation!

Don't worry Tony! I am pretty sure that we are about to get a load of
guf
from Bill Daniels about gear changes, torque multiplication, tension
logs
and tension spikes, with dark hints that the latter are somehow
dangerous,
but without any hard quantitative evidence or clarification as to why!

Derek Copeland

Glider winches should be simple, in general they are driven by simple
people. Probably the best winch I have driven or launched on is the
Munster Van Gelder. This winch provided an excellent launch, was very
simple to operate BUT it was heavy (8 tons with cable fitted) and
technically complicated to the extent that a simple failure of a small
cheap part could make it u/s. Far to complex. It could sink into a grass
airfield with ease, getting it out was a different story.
The Roman wich looks like a cut down Van Gelder and the Hydrowinch looks
even more complex.
The beauty of the Skylaunch is it's simplicity, modular easily accesible
main components, engine gearbox and drive gear. Driving a winch should be
viewed as a skilled occupation, far too often it is the lack of training
and unsuitability of winch drivers rather than the equipment itself which
causes problems. Good winch operation comes with experience operators and
no amount of technical wizardry can make up for that. Buy the skylaunch
and then get someone who knows about driving winches to train the drivers,
someone with a proven record, not someone who thinks they know.

I think you're wrong about the Skylaunch gear changes Derek! Our winch
has a torque converter, but I don't think it changes gear during the
launch! Or perhaps it does, but it's just that I have never been aware of
it!



Tony Clark

At 18:56 14 July 2008, Tony Clark wrote:

I think you're wrong about the Skylaunch gear changes Derek! Our winch
has a torque converter, but I don't think it changes gear during the
launch! Or perhaps it does, but it's just that I have never been aware
of
it!



Tony Clark


Major shortcoming is:
It's not here. Not close to our gliderport in SE Tennessee, USA.

Actually the Skylaunch comes as standard with a 3 speed changing automatic
GM TH400 gearbox. I drive Tost winches which have been retrofitted with
these gearboxes and I agree that the gear changes are not particularly
obvious to the winch driver, or to that matter to the pilot being
launched. With a sensible axle ratio the change from first to second
happens very soon after 'all out' and the change from second to top
during the ground run. If you listen carefully from outside the winch
during a launch you can hear them as a change in the engine note.

A changing gearbox gives a more rapid ground acceleration for heavier
gliders, and allows higher gearing in top for a greater range of cable
speeds without cooking the fluid in the torque converter getting the
glider moving.

Derek Copeland

At 18:56 14 July 2008, Tony Clark wrote:

I think you're wrong about the Skylaunch gear changes Derek! Our winch
has a torque converter, but I don't think it changes gear during the
launch! Or perhaps it does, but it's just that I have never been aware
of
it!



Tony Clark

Robert Gaines wrote:
At 18:56 14 July 2008, Tony Clark wrote:
I think you're wrong about the Skylaunch gear changes Derek! Our winch
has a torque converter, but I don't think it changes gear during the
launch! Or perhaps it does, but it's just that I have never been aware
of
it!

Tony Clark

Major shortcoming is:
It's not here. Not close to our gliderport in SE Tennessee, USA.

That could be fixed 8^)

To hear the gear changes watch and listen to the following video:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3PBcfahq4OU

N.B. The first launch is carried out by a Tost winch with a non-changing
automatic gearbox fixed in top gear. The rest are all with changing
automatic gearboxes.

Derek Copeland


At 19:26 14 July 2008, Derek Copeland wrote:
Actually the Skylaunch comes as standard with a 3 speed changing
automatic
GM TH400 gearbox. I drive Tost winches which have been retrofitted with
these gearboxes and I agree that the gear changes are not particularly
obvious to the winch driver, or to that matter to the pilot being
launched. With a sensible axle ratio the change from first to second
happens very soon after 'all out' and the change from second to top
during the ground run. If you listen carefully from outside the winch
during a launch you can hear them as a change in the engine note.

A changing gearbox gives a more rapid ground acceleration for heavier
gliders, and allows higher gearing in top for a greater range of cable
speeds without cooking the fluid in the torque converter getting the
glider moving.

Derek Copeland

At 18:56 14 July 2008, Tony Clark wrote:

I think you're wrong about the Skylaunch gear changes Derek! Our winch
has a torque converter, but I don't think it changes gear during the
launch! Or perhaps it does, but it's just that I have never been aware
of
it!



Tony Clark