Texas Tragedy Info?

Controls not connected seems obvious cause.

At 21:24 18 June 2012, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Jun 18, 10:54=A0am, cuflyer wrote:

Kid on his mother's lap - ? =A0Affecting control - ?
This is really ugly.

In the course of figuring out how to design a glider, I have picked
through the wreckage of many sailplanes, including no few
stall/spins.
And I don't think I've ever seen a stall/spin result in that much
forward fuselage damage. At least not in a metal glider.

Thanks, Bob K.

Very sad, especially so on Father's Day and with three members of the
same family.

Some other links with photos and video.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...-glider-crash/

http://www.khou.com/home/3-family-me...=y&c=y&c=y&c=y

In image 2 of 8 at the KHOU site the (orange) tail dolly is clearly
visible in a picture taken at what might have been very soon after the
accident.

- John

On Monday, June 18, 2012 5:12:27 PM UTC-5, Mark Dickson wrote:
Controls not connected seems obvious cause.


I looked at the local Lark after work today and I think it would be tough to swing the Horizontal/Elevator halves into place and pin them together without having the controls connected. Like any attempt at a fool-proof system I'm sure it is possible though. That doesn't discount the possibility of a problem somewhere else in the control system.

On 6/18/2012 1:57 PM, wrote:
I'm a member of GHSA and it's clear we need more investigative information
than speculation.

Certain comments from witnesses at the field (and I WAS NOT one of them)
indicate there were controllability issues seconds after rotating. The
towpilot is said to have been feeling the excessive pulls on the rope
increase, and was seeing the glider pitching around (in the mirror) far
more than usual. One witness said he was about to release the rope at his
end when it broke. Either way the glider was free of the rope at 75-100
feet AGL according to the preliminary statements of the NTSB official at
the crash site.

Our Twin Lark had taken off once long ago with the tail dolly attached, and
landed without incident (it's a light dolly). My "opinion" is the dolly
likely didn't contribute to the instability issue, but it tells another
story: the PIC didn't thoroughly preflight the glider. It will require the
official investigation by NTSB to determine if anything else was not
addressed prior to takeoff.

Obviously a key attention point is the child. I've heard the media comments
(local TV) that the child WAS strapped in using the same belts/harness as
his mother… AND he was not. Again--we have to wait for the official
finding. Also not officially determined: the sitting positions of the pilot
and the mother/child (who was in the front and who was in the back?). I'm
in agreement with the comments that there is no way you go flying with an
unrestrained passenger on board. I'm also of the opinion that it's not
prudent to take someone that young up simply because the cockpits are very
confining, controls are in easy reach, and children that young can be prone
to instant panic and physical anguish. That, in of itself, would be a
severe distraction to the PIC.

There are a number of points NTSB will have to examine:

(1) weight and balance loading (2) aircraft condition (3) towpilot
comments (4) ground witnesses (5) radio calls (6) physical condition of the
pilot.

Again--the tail dolly points to inattention on the part of the PIC, but
nothing more until the NTSB reports on the preceding. I know for a fact
that when I was out there Saturday, there were no squawks reported on the
Twin Lark, which had been flying that day.

I've known the pilot since jointing the club in 1997. He's been a senior
instructor since that time and he signed me off for my transition pilot
practical. I considered him an attentive and conservative pilot. I've
personally never known him to have any medical conditions; he seemed in
good shape when I talked to him Saturday. You have to remember: This was
his daughter-in-law and grandson that he took flying, so his typical
preflight routine MAY--REPEAT--MAY have been distracted by the family
aspect of the moment. It's likely another club member was ground crewing
and standing near the glider as they were loading, so we'll need to wait
for those eyewitness comments.

For now that's all we know and we must keep the speculation down and await
the NTSB's report. Fred will be greatly missed. It's tough all around since
GHSA has had a pretty good safety record. We haven't had a major accident
since 1999 and in that one the pilot walked away from his low-time,
lack-of-judgement landing approach decisions that caused him to go off the
end of the runway and total the glider.

Bob,

Thanks for the above. It takes real skill to inform sensitively. Tough to do
at a time like this, I know. It's also tough for me to imagine a more horrific
loss scenario than this...for the families involved, for friends, for the
Club, for soaring. My heart goes out to everyone.

Respectfully,
Bob W.

On Monday, June 18, 2012 1:13:11 PM UTC-7, Bill Palmer wrote:
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "since my decision is to always check my rudder first before releasing no matter what the tow plane is doing. If we always trained that way, we could eliminate this deadly but common mistake. "

My control (including rudder check) is before hookup. If I understand what you're saying, you work the rudder before release.
1) how does that eliminate this deadly mistake?
2)What do you do if you discover it to be jammed at that time? Tow back to a landing? That's hardly the best time to discover that, I would think. {that may sound a little snarky, but I don't mean it that way - just a genuine inquiry}


On Monday, June 18, 2012 12:46:53 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2012 12:04:38 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:

Nope- If the tail dolly was on, glider is still flyable. Most likely speculation on may part-#1 rule broken here which is FLY THE AIRPLANE.
I have seen a few tail dolly incidents or the years, and in every case, the pilot had to be told that the tail dolly was still on.
Other bad rule broken- NO unrestrained people in the glider- ever.
Terribly sad
UH

Photos do clearly show the tail dolly on. That can't help a cg, though
as Hank says unlikely to move it too far aft unless already at the
back limit. It does suggest things getting hurried in the preflight.

Photos also show both spoilers full open. That could happen in a crash
of course, but might also be indicative of things going wrong. There
was a spoler-open crash earlier this year where the pilots
interepreted the rudder waggle as a wing rock (NTSB). This is a very
dangerous combination. If you don't know the spoilers are open, you
won't know to use the much lower-nose pitch attitude that spoilers
require. You're at 200 feet, not aware your spoilers are open, and in
a pitch attitude that will lead quickly to loss of airspeed. I've been
having towplanes waggle rudders at BFR rides for a while, quite a few
of them release.

And I have to agree with Hank. They let you carry kids on airliners,
but this ain't an airliner -- there's no stick in seat 37E either.
Small children won't get that much out of a glider ride that can't
wait until they can sit alone. I don't let rides even bring video
cameras any more. They won't produce good footage, they'll just get
sick looking through the camera, and it can drop in uncomfortable
places.

John Cochrane

While may not related to this accident, I understand there was another rudder waggle accident recently??
Just to show how confusing it is, I specifically asked in my last BFR to get a rudder waggle (I know, it is not as effective when you ask for it) - the instructor or tow pilot misunderstood and gave me a wing rock instead.. It was still effective, since my decision is to always check my rudder first before releasing no matter what the tow plane is doing. If we always trained that way, we could eliminate this deadly but common mistake.

Ramy

I mistyped, I meant I am looking at my spoilers, not checking my rudder...
So I'll repeat again what I was trying to say:
"my decision is to always look at my spoilers first before deciding to release no matter what the tow plane is doing (waggle the rudder or rock the wings). If we always trained that way, we could eliminate this deadly but common mistake."

This may have nothing to do with this tragic accident, but worth repeating.

Ramy

Ramy,
Thanks, I'm much less confused now.
:-)


On Monday, June 18, 2012 4:55:46 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2012 1:13:11 PM UTC-7, Bill Palmer wrote:
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "since my decision is to always check my rudder first before releasing no matter what the tow plane is doing.. If we always trained that way, we could eliminate this deadly but common mistake. "

My control (including rudder check) is before hookup. If I understand what you're saying, you work the rudder before release.
1) how does that eliminate this deadly mistake?
2)What do you do if you discover it to be jammed at that time? Tow back to a landing? That's hardly the best time to discover that, I would think. {that may sound a little snarky, but I don't mean it that way - just a genuine inquiry}


On Monday, June 18, 2012 12:46:53 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
On Monday, June 18, 2012 12:04:38 PM UTC-7, John Cochrane wrote:

Nope- If the tail dolly was on, glider is still flyable. Most likely speculation on may part-#1 rule broken here which is FLY THE AIRPLANE.
I have seen a few tail dolly incidents or the years, and in every case, the pilot had to be told that the tail dolly was still on.
Other bad rule broken- NO unrestrained people in the glider- ever..
Terribly sad
UH

Photos do clearly show the tail dolly on. That can't help a cg, though
as Hank says unlikely to move it too far aft unless already at the
back limit. It does suggest things getting hurried in the preflight..

Photos also show both spoilers full open. That could happen in a crash
of course, but might also be indicative of things going wrong. There
was a spoler-open crash earlier this year where the pilots
interepreted the rudder waggle as a wing rock (NTSB). This is a very
dangerous combination. If you don't know the spoilers are open, you
won't know to use the much lower-nose pitch attitude that spoilers
require. You're at 200 feet, not aware your spoilers are open, and in
a pitch attitude that will lead quickly to loss of airspeed. I've been
having towplanes waggle rudders at BFR rides for a while, quite a few
of them release.

And I have to agree with Hank. They let you carry kids on airliners,
but this ain't an airliner -- there's no stick in seat 37E either.
Small children won't get that much out of a glider ride that can't
wait until they can sit alone. I don't let rides even bring video
cameras any more. They won't produce good footage, they'll just get
sick looking through the camera, and it can drop in uncomfortable
places.

John Cochrane

While may not related to this accident, I understand there was another rudder waggle accident recently??
Just to show how confusing it is, I specifically asked in my last BFR to get a rudder waggle (I know, it is not as effective when you ask for it) - the instructor or tow pilot misunderstood and gave me a wing rock instead. It was still effective, since my decision is to always check my rudder first before releasing no matter what the tow plane is doing. If we always trained that way, we could eliminate this deadly but common mistake.

Ramy

I mistyped, I meant I am looking at my spoilers, not checking my rudder....
So I'll repeat again what I was trying to say:
"my decision is to always look at my spoilers first before deciding to release no matter what the tow plane is doing (waggle the rudder or rock the wings). If we always trained that way, we could eliminate this deadly but common mistake."

This may have nothing to do with this tragic accident, but worth repeating.

Ramy

On Monday, June 18, 2012 4:23:39 PM UTC-6, JohnDeRosa wrote:
Very sad, especially so on Father's Day and with three members of the
same family.

Some other links with photos and video.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...-glider-crash/

http://www.khou.com/home/3-family-me...=y&c=y&c=y&c=y

In image 2 of 8 at the KHOU site the (orange) tail dolly is clearly
visible in a picture taken at what might have been very soon after the
accident.

- John
Report verifying that the tail dolly was on the glider.
http://www.khou.com/news/local/Cause...159501035.html

If the tail dolly was left on the angle of attack on the ground run would
be less so it wouldnt lift off till a higher speed had been reached. Could
this have had any control effects on tow?
If the toddler was sitting on his mothers lap his feet would be straight
out in an ideal place to interfere with the stick. Bad bad idea.

On Jun 19, 9:35*am, Nigel Pocock wrote:
If the tail dolly was left on the angle of attack on the ground run would
be less so it wouldnt lift off till a higher speed had been reached. Could
this have had any control effects on tow?
If the toddler was sitting on his mothers lap his feet would be straight
out in an ideal place to interfere with the stick. Bad bad idea.

The IS28b2 manual calls for +10 degree flap for aero tow takeoff and
the normal technique is to lift the tail early so the dolly probably
had no effect on liftoff speed. If the dolly was light it very likely
didn't shift the CG enough to provide a probable cause or even a
contributory factor in this accident - the Twin Lark is a big, heavy
and stable bird. Most likely the dolly is significant only in that it
provides evidence of carelessness.

If you put a small child in the cockpit of a glider, they will almost
invariably start yanking, pulling and twisting everything they can
reach making them unsafe as passengers. A child in a mother's lap
would be able to reach everything except the rudder pedals.

On Jun 19, 11:35*am, Nigel Pocock wrote:
If the tail dolly was left on the angle of attack on the ground run would
be less so it wouldnt lift off till a higher speed had been reached. Could
this have had any control effects on tow?
If the toddler was sitting on his mothers lap his feet would be straight
out in an ideal place to interfere with the stick. Bad bad idea.

Are the wing runners trained to check for extra big orange things
hanging off the glider
before takeoff? I know it is not their fault, but at the critical
launch the pilot is helpless to
see this mistake.