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IFR logging question - is this legal?



 
 
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  #21  
Old July 1st 06, 05:04 AM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Jose[_1_]
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Default IFR logging question - is this legal?

To BE PIC, one must be current and rated for the aircraft and the conditions.


... just aircraft - not conditions. If the pilot flying is sole manipulator
of the controls of an aircraft in which he is rated (category/class), then
he can log PIC. It doesn't matter what the weather conditions are (VMC/IMC/
Day/Night, etc.)


This doesn't contradict me. Note the difference between BEING and
LOGGING PIC.

Jose
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for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #22  
Old July 1st 06, 12:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Jose[_1_]
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Default IFR logging question - is this legal?

We will do a long flight, under IFR. Clearly my presence is required
because he doesn't have an IR. Does it mean that I must be PIC on that
flight (because I am the only one with an IR).


Yes.

Can he log instrument time, or (if under the hood) simulated
instrument time)? What if the whole flight is VMC on top (most
likely).


If under the hood in VMC, he can log PIC time and simulated instrument
time. If not under the hood, and in IMC, he can log actual instrument
time and PIC time.

You, OTOH, might not be able to log PIC time when you are not required
as safety pilot, which would be VMC while he wears the hood. The fact
that you are required as Pilot In Command doesn't let you log PIC.

I would be suprised if he could log it as instrument instruction,
because I am not an instructor.


He could not log it as dual.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #23  
Old July 1st 06, 02:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Brad[_1_]
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Default IFR logging question - is this legal?


Mark Hansen wrote:
On 06/30/06 13:17, Robert M. Gary wrote:
Brad wrote:
They can't BOTH log PIC time.


Actually they can if P1 is under the hood and flying and P2 is acting
as PIC.


Oops, I don't think that's true. This was discussed here at length about
two months ago. The issue is that "acting as PIC" doesn't give a person
the right to "log PIC".

When reading the regs, I thought the pilot not flying would be able to
log PIC as a result of 61.51 (c) (e) (1) (iii). However, the overwhelming
consensus was that the specific reg referred to situations in which
the pilot not flying was a required flight crew member based on the
type certificate, and not because the pilot flying was under the hood
and not instrument rated.

The pilot flying certainly can log PIC as sole manipulator of the
controls (provided he is certificated for the class/category of
aircraft).

The pilot not flying would be able to log PIC if he was a CFI, but
that was not the case presented by the OP.

--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA



No, both the sole manipulator of the controls and the safety pilot can
log time, regardless of whether the safety pilot is a flight instructor
or not. If the safety pilot acts as PIC he can log that time as pic
time. If the hooded pilot acts as PIC, then the safety pilot could log
second-in-command time as a required crewmember. He's required under
91.109

  #24  
Old July 1st 06, 04:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Mark Hansen
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Posts: 420
Default IFR logging question - is this legal?

On 06/30/06 21:03, Jose wrote:
Yes, but the flying pilot is not required to be there. There is nothing
in the FARs that says the flying pilot must be there. However, the FARs
do require a second crew member when the flying pilot is under the hood
in VMC.


Well, actually the regs don't require the hood to be there either.
Strict logic says that the pilot flying under the hood is not required,
so the flight actually only requires one pilot. However, the FAA
=interprets= the regs as requiring two pilots in order to provide a
venue for instrument training. There is no reason, given this
interpretation, that they can't also interpret it the same way for IMC
training.


Can you please provide a reference to this interpretation? Is it
written up in a legal counsel opinion somewhere?



Whether they do or not is a legitimate question.

Jose




--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA
  #25  
Old July 1st 06, 05:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Jose[_1_]
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Posts: 1,632
Default IFR logging question - is this legal?

Well, actually the regs don't require the hood to be there either. Strict logic says that the pilot flying under the hood is not required, so the flight actually only requires one pilot. However, the FAA =interprets= the regs as requiring two pilots in order to provide a venue for instrument training. There is no reason, given this interpretation, that they can't also interpret it the same way for IMC training.


Can you please provide a reference to this interpretation? Is it
written up in a legal counsel opinion somewhere?


It is written up in the FAA FAQs, which used to be available online, but
was taken down a year or two ago. Perhaps a new version is up.

FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
14 CFR, PART 61
ARRANGED BY SECTION

MAINTAINED BY ALLAN PINKSTON
PILOT EXAMINER STANDARDIZATION TEAM, AFS-640
Contact: Allan Pinkston phone: (405) 954 - 6472
E-Mail:
(Please include your phone number on e-mail questions)

THE ORIGINAL “Q&A” REFERENCE IS NOTED
FOLLOWING EACH (GROUP OF) QUESTION (S)

CHANGE NOTICE:
REVISION #17, DATE: AUGUST 22, 2002
INCORPORATING Q&A #s: 471-522
WITH ALL PREVIOUS Q&As 1 - 470

VERTICAL BAR IN LEFT MARGIN DENOTES CHANGES SINCE: 12/12/2001
NOTE: INFORMATION AND REFERENCES HAVE BEEN CORRECTED TO REPRESENT THE NEW PRIVATE AND COMMERCIAL PRACTICAL TEST STANDARDS EFFECTIVE AUGUST 2002.

CHANGES HAVE BEEN MADE TO Part 61 sections: 61.1, 61.13, 61.23, 61.31, 61.35, 61.39, 61.41, 61.45, 61.51, 61.57, 61.58, 61.73, 61.75, 61.77, 61.103, 61.113, 61.123, 61.129, 61.153, 61.157, 61.165, 61.183, 61.193, 61.195, 61.197, 61.215
UPDATE YOUR FAQs at
http://av-info.faa.gov or http://afs600.faa.gov
look under “Other Designee Information” for:

FAQ 14 CFR, Part 61 & 141

THE SOURCE OF ANSWERS IS JOHN LYNCH, AFS-840 CERTIFICATION BRANCH, WASHINGTON, DC UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED

Disclaimer Statement: The answers provided to the questions in this website are not legal interpretations. Only the FAA's Office of Chief Counsel and Regional Chief Counsel can provide legal interpretations. The FAA's Office of Chief Counsel does not review this website nor does it disseminate legal interpretations through it. However, there are some answers provided in this website where the FAA Office of Chief Counsel's legal interpretations have been reprinted.

However, the answers in this website address Frequently Asked Questions on 14 CFR part 61 and represents FAA Flight Standards Service policy as it relates to this regulation. The answers are provided for standardization purposes only.


Without scouring the document, here's a sample that illustrates.

QUESTION: Is it true that a qualified pilot can log pilot-in-command time for all flight time during which he acts as a required safety pilot per 14 CFR §91.109?

ANSWER: Yes, the safety pilot can log the time as PIC time in accordance with §61.51(e)(ii) which states ". . . regulations under which the flight is conducted."
{Q&A-88}


As it pertains to our discussion, I also came across this in the FAQ:

QUESTION: Regarding §61.51's definition of "operating an aircraft" an aircraft certified for two pilots is being operated under part 121. The PIC is "flying" the aircraft. The SIC is the non-flying pilot. Can the SIC log actual instrument flight time for those periods of actual IMC conditions when the PIC is flying the aircraft? Is the SIC considered to be "operating" the aircraft at this moment to justify logging this instrument time.

ANSWER: Ref. §61.51(f) and (g); The SIC is permitted to log the time as SIC time, as per §61.51(f). However, he is not permitted to log the time as instrument time, because as per §61.51(g), the person can only log instrument time “. . . for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions . . .” {Emphasis added “operates the aircraft”]. In your scenario, you stated the SIC was the non-flying pilot. So, the SIC crewmember was not operating the aircraft.

And even though you didn’t ask, the logged time has limited value. It cannot be used for the recency of experience under §61.57(c) because “ . . . operates the aircraft . . .” (otherwise meaning hands-on, flying pilot, etc.) is required.

Nor can this SIC time be used for meeting the ATP instrument aeronautical experience requirements of §61.159(a)(3) [i.e., “75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to . . . .”]
{Q&A-345}


So, the non-flying safety pilot could not log instrument time even in
IMC. Only the pilot flying (sole manipulator) gets that.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #26  
Old July 1st 06, 05:50 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Robert M. Gary
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Posts: 2,767
Default IFR logging question - is this legal?


Jose wrote:
So, the non-flying safety pilot could not log instrument time even in
IMC. Only the pilot flying (sole manipulator) gets that.


Yes, the non flying pilot is a passenger (even though he may actually
be serving as PIC). Of course 61.51 makes an exemption for CFIIs

-Robert, CFII

  #27  
Old July 1st 06, 05:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Robert M. Gary
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Posts: 2,767
Default IFR logging question - is this legal?


Jose wrote:
Well, actually the regs don't require the hood to be there either.
Strict logic says that the pilot flying under the hood is not required,
so the flight actually only requires one pilot. However, the FAA
=interprets= the regs as requiring two pilots in order to provide a
venue for instrument training. There is no reason, given this
interpretation, that they can't also interpret it the same way for IMC
training.


I don't follow. There is no reg that says IMC flights requires multiple
pilots (which is what 61.51(e) requires for multiple logging). Hood
time does have such a reg.

91.109
(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument
flight unless-

(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses
at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings
appropriate to the aircraft being flown.

In order for multiple pilots to log time in IMC you would have to point
to a simular reg for actual instrument.

  #28  
Old July 1st 06, 06:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Jose[_1_]
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Posts: 1,632
Default IFR logging question - is this legal?

91.109
(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument
flight unless-


In IMC, the pilot flying may keep the hood on, and thus a safety pilot
would be required. The pilot flying would then log this as simulated
instrument flight, even though he is in actual.

The rule is carved out well enough for the feds, but it is a special
exception, given that simulated instrument conditions are an
artificality anyway.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #29  
Old July 1st 06, 06:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Robert M. Gary
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Posts: 2,767
Default IFR logging question - is this legal?


Jose wrote:
91.109
(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument
flight unless-


In IMC, the pilot flying may keep the hood on, and thus a safety pilot
would be required. The pilot flying would then log this as simulated
instrument flight, even though he is in actual.


So your argument is that actual IMC is "simulated instrument flight"?
Sounds like you'd have to be a real Perry Mason to argue that.

-Robert

  #30  
Old July 1st 06, 06:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.ifr,rec.aviation.misc
Jose[_1_]
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Posts: 1,632
Default IFR logging question - is this legal?

So your argument is that actual IMC is "simulated instrument flight"?
Sounds like you'd have to be a real Perry Mason to argue that.


It is if the pilot flying is wearing a hood.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
 




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