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Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper Arrow III (brand new)



 
 
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  #1  
Old September 13th 06, 03:13 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Posts: 101
Default Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper Arrow III (brand new)

So I've decided to buy a plane (in July of 2007), and I've come to a
dilemma. I learned to fly on a Piper Arrow and very much like that
plane, though I haven't flown one in over a year, what I have been
flying is a Cessna Cardinal 177 RGII, very nice plane, great handling
and a pleasure to fly as well, I live in Hawai'i and shipping plays a
big part in inflating the value of planes here... Any plane I buy I
will be putting an AVIDYNE avionics twin LCD system into so I don't
care about the stock avionics packaged, hence my dilemma is as
follows...

I can either buy my flight clubs 177 for 50K (without avionics and a
high time engine (for 20K more the clubs mechanic will put a brand new
engine and prop on).

I can buy a Piper Arrow on the mainland and have it shipped to Hawai'i
for about 10K (from Cali), and refit that with the AVIDYNE system.

or...

I can buy a brand new Piper Arrow for a whopping 427,000 (with the
AVIDYINE and other options I can't get on the older planes stock). And
have peace of mind in a brand new plane that will last a long time
without incurring added maintenance expenses.

Whichever one I buy I will be doing a "lease-back" to the club to allow
other guys to fly it, with a small profit for me (mainly to pay for gas
and maintenance on the plane when I fly it)

Any advice is appreciated.

  #2  
Old September 13th 06, 03:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jose[_1_]
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Posts: 1,632
Default Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper ArrowIII (brand new)

or...

I can buy a brand new Piper Arrow for a whopping 427,000 (with the
AVIDYINE and other options I can't get on the older planes stock).


IF a half million dollar investment is a reasonable possibility, take a
look at what you can get, used, for that price.

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #3  
Old September 13th 06, 03:40 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Posts: 101
Default Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper Arrow III (brand new)


Jose wrote:
or...

I can buy a brand new Piper Arrow for a whopping 427,000 (with the
AVIDYINE and other options I can't get on the older planes stock).


IF a half million dollar investment is a reasonable possibility, take a
look at what you can get, used, for that price.

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.


I could get a lot, like a Piper 6XT or Saratoga, but the operating
costs and insurance costs blow those out of the picture, Hawai'i is a
unique flying environment, most flights are island hoppers, 30 minutes
to an hour at most, so the gas a Saratoga would burn on the ground
would make it very un-economical to operate here.

  #4  
Old September 13th 06, 04:17 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jose[_1_]
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Posts: 1,632
Default Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper ArrowIII (brand new)

I could get a lot, like a Piper 6XT or Saratoga, but the operating
costs and insurance costs blow those out of the picture,


So get a 300,000 plane and save 200,000 for operating costs.

Hawai'i is a
unique flying environment, most flights are island hoppers, 30 minutes
to an hour at most, so the gas a Saratoga would burn on the ground
would make it very un-economical to operate here.


I'll help keep it flying for you.

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #5  
Old September 13th 06, 04:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Posts: 101
Default Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper Arrow III (brand new)


Jose wrote:
I could get a lot, like a Piper 6XT or Saratoga, but the operating
costs and insurance costs blow those out of the picture,


So get a 300,000 plane and save 200,000 for operating costs.

Hawai'i is a
unique flying environment, most flights are island hoppers, 30 minutes
to an hour at most, so the gas a Saratoga would burn on the ground
would make it very un-economical to operate here.


I'll help keep it flying for you.

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.


That would be the dream... but I can't take out a loan for operating
costs, I really wish I had 500,000 in the bank though.

  #6  
Old September 13th 06, 04:57 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jose[_1_]
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Posts: 1,632
Default Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper ArrowIII (brand new)

So get a 300,000 plane and save 200,000 for operating costs.
That would be the dream... but I can't take out a loan for operating
costs, I really wish I had 500,000 in the bank though.


It's a nice dream. I like it too. And in Hawaii to boot.

If you couldn't do the 200,000 in operating costs on a 300,000 plane
(how many years would that take you to use up?), then how could you
convince a bank to lend you half a mil for a new Arrow? I'd like to
talk to your banker, I have some ideas too.

Any plane I buy I
will be putting an AVIDYNE avionics twin LCD system into


Why that particular one? For Hawaii flying, it seems all you need is
the wide screen HRPD.

The transition between Cessna and Piper is no big deal (as you know).
I've flown the Arrow and the Cutlass (though not the Cardinal). I
wouldn't pick based on what you most recently flew. I just wonder why
buy if you are going to lease back? (or why lease back if you are going
to buy?) Seems you would lose the part of the benefit of owning that
you don't get from being part of a club. Consider a partnership.

Why is the new Arrow even in the mix? It would be hard for maintanance
expenses to reach half a mil for the other airplanes you were considering.

As to short island hops, a higher performance plane will take you across
the entire chain faster. Where do you intend to go?

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #7  
Old September 13th 06, 05:36 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
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Posts: 101
Default Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper Arrow III (brand new)

If you couldn't do the 200,000 in operating costs on a 300,000 plane
(how many years would that take you to use up?), then how could you
convince a bank to lend you half a mil for a new Arrow? I'd like to
talk to your banker, I have some ideas too.


I can put $150,000 down. I'm going to use the plane to fly to work and
while I'm at work I wouldn't mind having it flown. Also I can't exactly
take a club plane and go home with it, then not show up at work for a
week when I take a vacation etc. etc. I would be clocking in about 400
hours a year which would make ownership more economical than rental.

Any plane I buy I
will be putting an AVIDYNE avionics twin LCD system into


Why that particular one? For Hawaii flying, it seems all you need is
the wide screen HRPD.


Personal taste, the entire system retails at about 35,000, which I
wouldn't mind given the advantages of having both that I'll go into
below.

Why is the new Arrow even in the mix? It would be hard for maintanance
expenses to reach half a mil for the other airplanes you were considering.


My "daily" routine would be Moloka'i to Honolulu (47 NM cross country)
don't let that fool you, between Moloka'i and O'ahu is the Kaiwi
Channel, the best weather I've ever flown in and the worst, as well as
the sneakiest, hence a pristine avionics set up would be nice, it would
also get the plane rented more.

As to short island hops, a higher performance plane will take you across
the entire chain faster. Where do you intend to go?


Like I said 47NM usually, while the longest flight (from Lihue to Hilo,
which will probably never happen) takes about a 3.0. It's a general
consensus amongst pilots here than a personal plane should be a
reliable durable single (retract preferable), which leads to an
enormous popularity here for the Cessna Cardinal. The consensus is also
that any commuter inter island flying (Part 135) can only be done
economically in Navajos or Chieftains, any other plane (inclucing
Cessna Twins) are uneconomical here, due to our environment.... Salt
Water (propellers last half as long here as on the mainland), humid,
low spread between temperature and dewpoint, daily moderate turbulence
(Airmet Tango was ineffect for 328 days last year), as well as the fact
that the plane needs to be "simple", the "simpler" the better as
getting parts out here for more complex airplans is known to have taken
months (getting an exhaust manifold for the Cardinal took 5 weeks last
year after a crack developed).

  #8  
Old September 13th 06, 05:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Jose[_1_]
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Posts: 1,632
Default Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper ArrowIII (brand new)

I can put $150,000 down.

That buys a lot of airplane, especially for your missions.

If this is your first time buying, I wouldn't go whole hog. Learn on
the first one, and then step up if necessary.

As for reliability (in the avionics, for example), you are better off in
some ways having two systems with 95% reliability than one system with
99% reliability. So, money spent for the "super reliable" may be better
spent on a simple backup system. But personal taste counts for
something (otherwise we'd all be flying other people's airplanes). I've
never owned a plane, but I certainly would not buy the very expensive
new plane as my first one. I'd learn (ownership) on a less expensive
one, make my mistakes where they don't cost as much, and once I know a
lot more than I know now, I'd trade up appropriately (or not - it may
turn out that I had already hit the sweet spot).

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #9  
Old September 13th 06, 08:11 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dave S
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Posts: 406
Default Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper ArrowIII (brand new)

Having flown the Cardinal RG and the Pa-28R-200, (and liked both).. I
would lean towards the cardinal. You have much greater visibility out
the Cardinal (and can EASILY lean forward to put your head ahead of the
leading edge and visually clear above the wing)..

High wing gives you some rain protection on the ground loading and
unloading.. I used to live in Hawaii and remember afternoon showers
there regularly on the windward sides of the islands..

Large doors that open VERY wide make for easy boarding and loading, and
there are two of them.

Cardinal RG strikes me as just a tad faster/sleeker

Again.. we are having to choose between two very good and capable
airframes, but I favor the cardinal, even though I have much more time
in the Arrow.

Dave

wrote:
So I've decided to buy a plane (in July of 2007), and I've come to a
dilemma. I learned to fly on a Piper Arrow and very much like that
plane, though I haven't flown one in over a year, what I have been
flying is a Cessna Cardinal 177 RGII, very nice plane, great handling
and a pleasure to fly as well, I live in Hawai'i and shipping plays a
big part in inflating the value of planes here... Any plane I buy I
will be putting an AVIDYNE avionics twin LCD system into so I don't
care about the stock avionics packaged, hence my dilemma is as
follows...

I can either buy my flight clubs 177 for 50K (without avionics and a
high time engine (for 20K more the clubs mechanic will put a brand new
engine and prop on).

I can buy a Piper Arrow on the mainland and have it shipped to Hawai'i
for about 10K (from Cali), and refit that with the AVIDYNE system.

or...

I can buy a brand new Piper Arrow for a whopping 427,000 (with the
AVIDYINE and other options I can't get on the older planes stock). And
have peace of mind in a brand new plane that will last a long time
without incurring added maintenance expenses.

Whichever one I buy I will be doing a "lease-back" to the club to allow
other guys to fly it, with a small profit for me (mainly to pay for gas
and maintenance on the plane when I fly it)

Any advice is appreciated.

  #10  
Old September 13th 06, 11:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
[email protected]
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Posts: 101
Default Cessna Cardinal 177 RG II v. Piper Arrow III (70s) v. Piper Arrow III (brand new)


Dave S wrote:
Having flown the Cardinal RG and the Pa-28R-200, (and liked both).. I
would lean towards the cardinal. You have much greater visibility out
the Cardinal (and can EASILY lean forward to put your head ahead of the
leading edge and visually clear above the wing)..


Never tried leaning forward, the positive thing though about the high
wing is I can visually confirm gear are locked and down.

High wing gives you some rain protection on the ground loading and
unloading.. I used to live in Hawaii and remember afternoon showers
there regularly on the windward sides of the islands..


Agreed, on Oahu you get a lot of showers that get driven over the
mountains and into two VFR arrivals for HNL, one came over so fast one
time (and the temperature dropped on me) and a thunderstorm started
forming around me, I had to dive the plane between two volcanic craters
to 400 feet AGL (one of which tops out at 1208 MSL, the other at about
350 MSL).

Large doors that open VERY wide make for easy boarding and loading, and
there are two of them.


Agreed

Cardinal RG strikes me as just a tad faster/sleeker


It's slower by 10 knots... but speed wasn't my concern on a primarily
sub-cross country flight.

The reason the "new Arrow" is in the mix is because I plan on keeping
the plane for 40 years at a minimum (thats the plan, might not happen
but all signs point to yes) which would mean that a plane with 0 TT
will be a lot friendlier to my schedules than a plane thats got 5800 TT
(Cardinal RG I'm looking at).

 




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