Should I be scared -- C172 over Gross

Peter Dohm wrote:
Well said Sir. The passenger is entrusting their life in your hands.
When I take a passenger up in a glider, I understand what a huge
responsibility that is. Reminds me of the Cokehead pilot that killed
that singer Brandy? flying to the Bahamas over gross and impaired on
drugs. He might have had the same reasoning...ah just a bit over
gross, so the climb out will be sluggish....

If you're thinking of the same crash that I am, the aircraft was way, way,
way out of aft cg limits and would have killed them without regard to the
rest. And yes, there were more than enough other problems...


I used to fly in and out of that airport (Marsh Harbour, Abaco Island) several
times a year and remember the crash fairly well. The pilot's coke use wasn't a
factor although it surely didn't help. The basic problem was too much beef on
board (9 SOB on a C-402), along with a ton of other crap. The pilot tried to
talk them out of it but they pitched such a bitch he gave in. A few minutes
later they were all dead. And it was Aaliyah, not Brandy.

Ordinarily there was nothing wrong with that airport although density altitude
could always raise its ugly head. The runway was a good 5000 feet long by
either 100 or 150 feet wide and paved.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

tman wrote:
Flown C172's for quite a while, and never had anybody in the back.
Now I'm planning on quite a trip, with 2 pax and luggage.

You shouldn't be scared, you should be confident. (And above all safe.)

In more cavalier flying days I have done this once or twice, right at or
slightly over gross, in a 172 on an ideal day. For the purpose of
discussion let's assume you're going to do it.

Where's your CG and how will it influence takeoff and climbout? What
happens if the engine quits on departure? How much extra runway do
you have, and what does your density altitude look like? An airplane
that is overgross might still perform better in straight climbout than
an undergross airplane on hot, humid day. If you've got 11,000 feet of
runway ahead of you with the elevation at near sea level, and no
obstacles to clear, and it's cold and dry, that will help. If you're
going to be going over mountains or it's turbulent, you need to know
what to expect.

My biggest concern here would be the "never had anybody in back" factor.
When you launch and land with four adults on board, even under gross
it's a different feel. If you've experienced that and you already know
what to expect with an airplane near max gross, you will be able to
recognize how the airplane is handling differently once you're over
gross. Without that previous experience it would be pretty tough to
tell whether you're experiencing a situation caused by being over-gross,
or something that feels normal with four adults on board. The
additional stress and distraction on the PIC could be more of a factor
than that placed on the airframe.

Finally, I personally -hate- feeling like I'm a half-ass pilot or that I
just put my pax at the edge of my envelope without their knowledge. If
they're all aware of it and they understand, that's one thing, but if
something happens you might end up feeling like a total heel, or worse.

If I were going to do this flight I would run around the pattern a few
times with pax in back so you get a feel for what's supposed to happen.

Keep your airspeeds up, keep your pitch and bank rates low, watch your
angle of attack (!!!), stay coordinated and fly like you're carrying a
load of nitroglycerin. Work your CG figures for both takeoff and
landing, and also empty in case you have to divert. If you're "scared"
you're more likely make mistakes.

Having said all that, I don't think I'd make the flight myself. But I
have before, in a 172 at maybe 40lbs over gross, and nothing broke.

-c

On Apr 18, 5:25*am, gatt wrote:


Having said all that, I don't think I'd make the flight myself. *But I
have before, in a 172 at maybe 40lbs over gross, and nothing broke.


This is ridiculous. How on earth do you think ferry flights work,
they can be way over MTOW but the wings don't rip off do they? A 172
it's not going to notice a measely 40lbs over MTOW unless the COG is
wrong.

Cheers

WingFlaps wrote:

Having said all that, I don't think I'd make the flight myself. But I
have before, in a 172 at maybe 40lbs over gross, and nothing broke.


This is ridiculous. How on earth do you think ferry flights work,
they can be way over MTOW but the wings don't rip off do they? A 172
it's not going to notice a measely 40lbs over MTOW unless the COG is
wrong.

Tell it to the insurance company or your passengers if you prang the
landing because, say, you've never carried passengers in the back of a
C-172 before and, say, you hit a windshear on final.

Ferry pilots don't carry unwitting passengers in back when they're
overgross.

-c

On Apr 18, 5:52*am, gatt wrote:
WingFlaps wrote:
Having said all that, I don't think I'd make the flight myself. *But I
have before, in a 172 at maybe 40lbs over gross, and nothing broke.

This is ridiculous. *How on earth do you think ferry flights work,
they can be way over MTOW but the wings don't rip off do they? A 172
it's not going to notice a measely 40lbs over MTOW unless the COG is
wrong.

Tell it to the insurance company or your passengers if you prang the
landing because, say, you've never carried passengers in the back of a
C-172 before and, say, you hit a windshear on final.



Are you saying you don't do a MAUW test flight in your training?

Cheers

On Apr 17, 1:54*pm, WingFlaps wrote:
Are you saying you don't do a MAUW test flight in your training?

That is exactly what he is saying. It's also pretty normal these days
to get a license in a 4-seater (Skyhawk or Warrior) without ever
having anyone in the back seat or coming anywhere near gross weight.

Michael

WingFlaps wrote:

Tell it to the insurance company or your passengers if you prang the
landing because, say, you've never carried passengers in the back of a
C-172 before and, say, you hit a windshear on final.

Are you saying you don't do a MAUW test flight in your training?

I don't see anything I've written anywhere above that suggests such a
thing.



-c

On Apr 18, 5:52*am, gatt wrote:
WingFlaps wrote:
Having said all that, I don't think I'd make the flight myself. *But I
have before, in a 172 at maybe 40lbs over gross, and nothing broke.

This is ridiculous. *How on earth do you think ferry flights work,
they can be way over MTOW but the wings don't rip off do they? A 172
it's not going to notice a measely 40lbs over MTOW unless the COG is
wrong.

Tell it to the insurance company or your passengers if you prang the
landing because, say, you've never carried passengers in the back of a
C-172 before and, say, you hit a windshear on final.

Ferry pilots don't carry unwitting passengers in back when they're
overgross.


Look, lets try to put this in perspective. We are not talking about a
big weight. We are taling about a 1700# plane with a 40# excess
payload. Provided the COG is good, you would not probably notice 40
lbs over MTOW from MTOW. The G loading has only increased by less than
2%. That means that apart from a reduction in climb performance
handling will be OK. He's stated that the climb out is not an issue
and by the time he lands he'll be well under MTOW. As for carrying
unwitting passengers, I believe commercial operators do it more often
than they would admit to or even realize (given the average weight
increase of passengers)...

Cheers

So how is the conversation going to go?...Listen, I've never flown
with passengers in the back before. The plane is also over the legal
limit, but I think the numbers aren't too bad. Unless of course you
really aren't the 200lb you claim and are more like 225lbs.... and
the luggage is heavier than we think. Maybe I should use a scale and
actually see what the weight being put in the plane really
is....Nah,,,,but anyway, I posted it online, and everyone said we
should be OK because those funny engineers put in a fudge factor, so
the numbers listed don't really need to be followed.....

It's not like Burt Rutan is flying his buddies to the Hilton Ranch...

With all due respect to the original poster, I'd really reconsider
this outing as planned....

gatt wrote:
Tell it to the insurance company or your passengers if you prang the
landing because, say, you've never carried passengers in the back of a
C-172 before and, say, you hit a windshear on final.

Ferry pilots don't carry unwitting passengers in back when they're
overgross.



They might if they hadn't already loaded it to capacity with fuel. Ferrying
operations are a good example of flying overgrossed successfully.
Unfortunately, the cabin is usually stuffed with fuel bladders so there's no
room for passengers unless they want to ride outside in the smoking section.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com