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#11
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Pneumatics Question
On 25 May, 15:13, wrote:
On May 24, 9:32*pm, jsbrake wrote: Hi All, Whenever I accelerate, my varios bump up and tell me I'm climbing, then settle back to reality. *Any idea of what I need to look for to fix this? My setup: Kestrel 19, two static ports in the tail boom, pitot and TE in the fin. *The TE line is split under the seat using a Y connector and then travels to two varios (a Winter mechanical and a 1990-era audio/final- glide called a VariCalc). *Pitot and static lines are split behind the panel using T connectors. I replaced all the non-permanent tubing last year and they all seemed to be leak-free. Thanks! -John Next question is do they go down when you pull up. If both events occur, you are somewhat over compensated. Depending on the type of probe, this may be able to be tuned. UH To be pedantic what uncle Hank is saying is that in that case the compensation is spot on and for comfort you need to be a tads under compensated. Your tube is a Braunschweig type commonly known amongst Anglo-Saxon pilots as a Brunswick tube. They can be accurate but that is very difficult to achieve by machining to a drawing. They usually need calibrating by adjusting the length of tube distal to the lower slot. The shape of the end is critical as it needs to be square and sharp cornered. Not easy and devising the test bed be it bench or flight test is pretty tedious. The Brunswick is somewhat prone to yaw error. An Irving tube - the one with two holes each facing 50 degrees away from the aft centre line is less prone to yaw error and if accurately made to Frank Irving's drawing will give the right amount of under-compensation without calibration. If the degree of compensation proves to be your problem I recommend you buy a commercially made Irving tube. You could spend all summer messing around with a basically inferior tube. On no account put in a Nick's tube with only one hole as they even more prone to yaw error and poor compensation. Slingsbys may have supplied commercially made Brunswick tubes so you might have a good one if it is original. Another source of confusing error is the use of long lengths of soft silicon rubber tubing. (more than a few inches). Under varying 'G' it deforms and causes air movement within the plumbing. PVC with a little silicone grease and twist-wired at the joints is better if less sexy and tedious to connect. A well made PVC joint left alone will last for years. If you want a bit of bed-time reading try "The influence of acceleration on the sink rate of a sailplane and on the indication of the variometer" by Frank Brozel; Technical Soaring; Vol X No1 p10. Also anything you find by Frank Irving is always worth reading but I'd have to do some deep research to give you any references so you are on your own on that one. |
#12
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Pneumatics Question
UH: When I pull up, the varios go up... both of 'em.
There's about 2' of silcon tubing in the circuit, all of it at the panel end. The second line of TE is silicon from the Y splitter that I installed, so call that about 4' long. The pvc lines end at the central pedestal where the hood and panel are removable, so there's silicon, then a 5-way quick-connector and then silicon to the instruments. I could probably remove about 4-6" of extra silicon, but it gives me some "play" for being able to get at the quick-connect without needing extra joints in my arms. I'm not doing heavy g manoevers, maybe 1.5 g on a pull-up, perhaps 0.75 g on a push-over. The most g I normally pull is during thermalling turns. I think I recall reading in the aircraft notes about a Brunswick tube. It appears to be factory made and the slots are well-defined. |
#13
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Pneumatics Question
. *Replaced the connector this year.
- the VariCalc has connections for all three lines; the Winter mechanical connects to TE and capacity. *A problem in static shouldn't affect both instruments. Faulty multi-connectors can also cause your described symptom as well. Check the O-rings well, and silicone grease is your friend. Hmmm, this puts possible tailboom static issues back on the map and your VariCalc could be cross-talking that or an internal pitot leak error to your Winter. Run it once with cockpit static before getting too fancy with time consuming ground testing. It's real easy and you get to fly... Your vario isolation test will also be useful here, I suggest unhooking (plug loose lines!) the VariCalc first. -Paul |
#14
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Pneumatics Question
On 25 May, 17:29, jsbrake wrote:
UH: When I pull up, the varios go up... both of 'em. There's about 2' of silcon tubing in the circuit, all of it at the panel end. *The second line of TE is silicon from the Y splitter that I installed, so call that about 4' long. *The pvc lines end at the central pedestal where the hood and panel are removable, so there's silicon, then a 5-way quick-connector and then silicon to the instruments. *I could probably remove about 4-6" of extra silicon, but it gives me some "play" for being able to get at the quick-connect without needing extra joints in my arms. I'm not doing heavy g manoevers, maybe 1.5 g on a pull-up, perhaps 0.75 g on a push-over. *The most g I normally pull is during thermalling turns. I think I recall reading in the aircraft notes about a Brunswick tube. *It appears to be factory made and the slots are well-defined. An up indication no matter which way you push or pull isn't a matter of degree of compensation. A few inches of squashy tube won't make a difference and it sounds like you have relatively modest quantities. I am puzzled why different manoeuvres have the same effect. It somewhat suggests multiple pathology. Two questions ref egg sucking. Pneumatic netto was common in the seventies, presumably there is no cruise/climb switch in the plumbing to the Winter? When you did your leak test did you connect to the Brunswick tube? If so did you remember to put a piece of wire (about .020") up the slots and into the plastic test pipe to stop the pipe sealing around the end of the probe? Make an exact diagram of all the plumbing. It helps enormously in keeping track and thinking about what effect a leak at any position will have. |
#15
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Pneumatics Question
On May 25, 1:23*pm, Peter Gray wrote:
On 25 May, 17:29, jsbrake wrote: UH: When I pull up, the varios go up... both of 'em. There's about 2' of silcon tubing in the circuit, all of it at the panel end. *The second line of TE is silicon from the Y splitter that I installed, so call that about 4' long. *The pvc lines end at the central pedestal where the hood and panel are removable, so there's silicon, then a 5-way quick-connector and then silicon to the instruments. *I could probably remove about 4-6" of extra silicon, but it gives me some "play" for being able to get at the quick-connect without needing extra joints in my arms. I'm not doing heavy g manoevers, maybe 1.5 g on a pull-up, perhaps 0.75 g on a push-over. *The most g I normally pull is during thermalling turns. I think I recall reading in the aircraft notes about a Brunswick tube. *It appears to be factory made and the slots are well-defined. An up indication no matter which way you push or pull isn't a matter of degree of compensation. A few inches of squashy tube won't make a difference and it sounds like you have relatively modest quantities. I am puzzled why different manoeuvres have the same effect. It somewhat suggests multiple pathology. Two questions ref egg sucking. Pneumatic netto was common in the seventies, presumably there is no cruise/climb switch in the plumbing to the Winter? It did have pneumatic netto, but the plumbing was removed before I got the ship. I still have the brass fitting. When you did your leak test did you connect to the Brunswick tube? If so did you remember to put a piece of wire (about .020") up the slots and into the plastic test pipe to stop the pipe sealing around the end of the probe? I removed the Brunswick and connected directly to the stub sticking out of the fin. Air flows easily through the Brunswick. Make an exact diagram of all the plumbing. It helps enormously in keeping track and thinking about what effect a leak at any position will have. Straight runs from point of opening (fin for TE/pitot, 2 in boom for static) to the pedestal. From there, it's silicon to the quick- connect and then to the instruments. Pitot and Static are both T- split in the panel, the TE is Y-split under the seat. Nothing else in the circuit. Pitot goes to ASI and VariCalc; Static goes to ASI and Alt; TE to the varios; Capacity to the mech vario. Basic setup, matches what I found on W&W and Winter websites about connecting plumbing to instruments. |
#16
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Pneumatics Question
In the case of using a mechanical and an electronic vario - capacity
and no capacity respectively - and a glider in which the tubing aft of the panel is not that accessible, I wonder whether just teeing and having a 7 foot length of tubing to the vario would isolate the TE line enough to minimize mutual interference. I accept that this would add volume to the system, which may be a problem, and that the handful of tubing might be a problem for space behind the panel. Would this be a workable solution? |
#17
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Pneumatics Question
*Pitot and Static are both T-
split in the panel, the TE is Y-split under the seat. *Nothing else in the circuit. *Pitot goes to ASI and VariCalc; Static goes to ASI and Alt; TE to the varios; OK not static. Sounds like cross talk between your pitot and TE through that VariCalc's internals. Still an easy test- unhook it and fly. -Paul |
#18
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Pneumatics Question
Get rid of the 4-way connector. They are unreliable, sometimes
causing cross-talk between paths. For peace of mind, use separate connectors. Bob - then traced my original TE troubles to a leak in the 4-way connector at the panel. *Replaced the connector this year. |
#19
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Pneumatics Question
On 25 May, 19:39, jsbrake wrote:
On May 25, 1:23*pm, Peter Gray wrote: On 25 May, 17:29, jsbrake wrote: UH: When I pull up, the varios go up... both of 'em. There's about 2' of silcon tubing in the circuit, all of it at the panel end. *The second line of TE is silicon from the Y splitter that I installed, so call that about 4' long. *The pvc lines end at the central pedestal where the hood and panel are removable, so there's silicon, then a 5-way quick-connector and then silicon to the instruments. *I could probably remove about 4-6" of extra silicon, but it gives me some "play" for being able to get at the quick-connect without needing extra joints in my arms. I'm not doing heavy g manoevers, maybe 1.5 g on a pull-up, perhaps 0.75 g on a push-over. *The most g I normally pull is during thermalling turns. I think I recall reading in the aircraft notes about a Brunswick tube. *It appears to be factory made and the slots are well-defined.. An up indication no matter which way you push or pull isn't a matter of degree of compensation. A few inches of squashy tube won't make a difference and it sounds like you have relatively modest quantities. I am puzzled why different manoeuvres have the same effect. It somewhat suggests multiple pathology. Two questions ref egg sucking. Pneumatic netto was common in the seventies, presumably there is no cruise/climb switch in the plumbing to the Winter? It did have pneumatic netto, but the plumbing was removed before I got the ship. *I still have the brass fitting. When you did your leak test did you connect to the Brunswick tube? If so did you remember to put a piece of wire (about .020") up the slots and into the plastic test pipe to stop the pipe sealing around the end of the probe? I removed the Brunswick and connected directly to the stub sticking out of the fin. *Air flows easily through the Brunswick. What that doesn't do is test the integrity of the joint between probe and socket in the fin. |
#20
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Quote:
Hi John Have a read of this article by Rudi Brozel of Ilec re compensation http://www.nadler.com/sn10/Brozel_TE...n_20020510.pdf ps is it Kilo Yankee Cheers |
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