Why is Soaring declining

The way I read the FARs,..... it takes 20 Flights in a glider,
aeronatical experience, if you do not have a power license. This could
be done in areas where there is good lift, rather teach SOARING by
flying one or two hrs at a time, than making all those launches the
way they do it in Germany in many places. Interesting that there is no
requirement for minmum time, like in power training (hrs)! The only
requirement is the two hrs of solo flight time mentioned, which in no
lift sites could take quite a few launches.
All this refers to US FARs

From what I've seen, before safe solo aerotow requires 25-50 flights
for pure novices. Winch or autotow may be easier. I dunno...


With a power rating, or 40 hrs of power time under your belt it could
be done with 13 flights. All this, Of course, has to be cleverly
arranged, to fit into the rest of the framework, dual and soloflights
required. AND those are minima. Some students learn fast, very few
never get it.

Dieter B 1408997CFI Life Member SSA

I've seen very experienced power guys solo in four flights.
Aerotow is the hardest part. If they've done formation/IFR
before especially. I dunno how a pilot with the bare minimum
40 hrs would do...
--

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Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

The way I read the FARs,..... it takes 20 Flights in a glider,
aeronatical experience, if you do not have a power license. This could
be done in areas where there is good lift, rather teach SOARING by
flying one or two hrs at a time, than making all those launches the
way they do it in Germany in many places. Interesting that there is no
requirement for minmum time, like in power training (hrs)! The only
requirement is the two hrs of solo flight time mentioned, which in no
lift sites could take quite a few launches.
All this refers to US FARs

With a power rating, or 40 hrs of power time under your belt it could
be done with 13 flights. All this, Of course, has to be cleverly
arranged, to fit into the rest of the framework, dual and soloflights
required. AND those are minima. Some students learn fast, very few
never get it.


Yeah, and the Tooth Fairy is alive and well.

You might do well interviewing actual students and see what their
experience has been. The legal minimums is a fairy tale. If you want
to play in fairy land, go ahead. The reality of training REAL STUDENTS
in a REAL ENVIRONMENT is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!

Real students have interruptions in their training (seasons,
financial, etc.) and are forced to re-learn material already covered.
Some are A LOT SLOWER than others. This is reality. You are living in
a fairy tale world: it's thinking like yours that is driving the sport
into the ground.

Tom Seim
Richland, WA

The way I read the FARs,..... it takes 20 Flights in a glider,
aeronatical experience, if you do not have a power license. This could
be done in areas where there is good lift, rather teach SOARING by
flying one or two hrs at a time, than making all those launches the
way they do it in Germany in many places. Interesting that there is no
requirement for minmum time, like in power training (hrs)! The only
requirement is the two hrs of solo flight time mentioned, which in no
lift sites could take quite a few launches.

The difficult thing in soaring is not the soaring. It's the landing.
You only have one try. That is fundamentally different from powered
flight. That means a lot more training has to be put in to it. I think
80-100 launches is quite reasonable to be safe.


With a power rating, or 40 hrs of power time under your belt it could
be done with 13 flights.

I hate to think of encountering someone holding a licence after only
13 flights. We have had power pilots taking up soaring. They are
usually a bit faster, but not a lot, to get to the exam.


PS A well organized school with paid instructors,...

With that you are automatically back to the 3000$ Tom mentioned. Or
how little do you think an instructor would want to earn?

Marcel Duenner wrote:

The difficult thing in soaring is not the soaring. It's the landing.
You only have one try. That is fundamentally different from powered
flight. That means a lot more training has to be put in to it. I think
80-100 launches is quite reasonable to be safe.

Learning to aerotow safely in my experience takes more time
than learning to land. By the time the purely new student can safely
aerotow for solo, landings seem to be fine. Usually for solo
this is about half of your 80-100, and the other half is post-solo
and dual practice before the checkride...

This is from an informal recollection of about a dozen logbooks...

Again, I just don't know how this compares to ground launch (winch)
training...

I hate to think of encountering someone holding a licence after only
13 flights. We have had power pilots taking up soaring. They are
usually a bit faster, but not a lot, to get to the exam.

The pilots who were previous hang glider or power pilots
really seem to need only 1/2 to 1/4 the # of flights. But the
sample I'm basing this on is pilots with hundreds of previous flight
hours, not just 40 hours...

PS A well organized school with paid instructors,...

With that you are automatically back to the 3000$ Tom mentioned. Or
how little do you think an instructor would want to earn?

There are a FEW clubs that give free instruction in AZ and
in CA (Los Angeles area has one). Bless their hearts...
They also have less expensive gliders and low fees.
But this of course comes with a little less certainty that
one can get a glider and instructor when one wants one, too...

I'm astounded at the graciousness and charity of some instructors.
They are real heroes, IMHO...
--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:4088b324$1@darkstar...
Marcel Duenner wrote:

The difficult thing in soaring is not the soaring. It's the landing.
You only have one try. That is fundamentally different from powered
flight. That means a lot more training has to be put in to it. I think
80-100 launches is quite reasonable to be safe.

Learning to aerotow safely in my experience takes more time
than learning to land. By the time the purely new student can safely
aerotow for solo, landings seem to be fine. Usually for solo
this is about half of your 80-100, and the other half is post-solo
and dual practice before the checkride...

This is from an informal recollection of about a dozen logbooks...

Again, I just don't know how this compares to ground launch (winch)
training...


I should have mentioned we do about 80-90% winch launching. A winch
launch will get you 6-8 minutes of flight w/o lift. So it's common to
total more launches during training than in a pure aerotow setup.

I hate to think of encountering someone holding a licence after only
13 flights. We have had power pilots taking up soaring. They are
usually a bit faster, but not a lot, to get to the exam.

The pilots who were previous hang glider or power pilots
really seem to need only 1/2 to 1/4 the # of flights. But the
sample I'm basing this on is pilots with hundreds of previous flight
hours, not just 40 hours...

PS A well organized school with paid instructors,...

With that you are automatically back to the 3000$ Tom mentioned. Or
how little do you think an instructor would want to earn?

There are a FEW clubs that give free instruction in AZ and
in CA (Los Angeles area has one). Bless their hearts...
They also have less expensive gliders and low fees.
But this of course comes with a little less certainty that
one can get a glider and instructor when one wants one, too...

I'm astounded at the graciousness and charity of some instructors.
They are real heroes, IMHO...

I'll tell them. Of our 130 members about 20 are instructors. The rest
shares the other jobs to be done: winch drivers, tow pilots,... all
for free. It's our hobby.

Marcel

Why walk when you can soar?

Tom Seim wrote:

In retrospect, I don't know if I would put with, today, what I had to
endure 25 years ago to get my license. Training could be sped up thru

I really think the training required to get a license/learn to
solo soar safely is the biggest deterrent, next to airsickness.

Golfers, swimmers, etc. can enjoy their sport to some extent
even if they do it at a very novice level. I can get someone sailing
a dinghy enough to not die in about a weekend. Not a chance
of soloing a sailplane in a weekend if you've never flown anything before.

Scuba, snorkelling, rock climbing, etc. have "solo" beginner levels.
Soaring just doesn't. It's just harder...


--

------------+
Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA

Mark James Boyd wrote:
Tom Seim wrote:

In retrospect, I don't know if I would put with, today, what I had to
endure 25 years ago to get my license. Training could be sped up thru

I really think the training required to get a license/learn to
solo soar safely is the biggest deterrent, next to airsickness.


It is *one* obvious deterrent, but not the only one. How do you explain
otherwise that a lot of people with their exam and hundred of hours post
exam leave the sport? In fact most of the people who have taken the exam
leave after a couple of years since the number of members is not
steadily increasing in clubs, while they regularly graduate a constant
flux of newcomers. At least this is what i see here.


--

Michel TALON

Michel Talon writes
How do you explain otherwise that a lot of people with their exam and
hundred of hours post exam leave the sport? In fact most of the people
who have taken the exam leave after a couple of years since the number
of members is not steadily increasing in clubs, while they regularly
graduate a constant flux of newcomers. At least this is what i see here.

The phenomena of "Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, move onto the
next mountain" perhaps? In anything there have to be natural attrition
points where something that was once a thrill and a pleasure to
participate in when fresh becomes dull and commonplace with repetition
and familiarity.

--
Bill Gribble

/---------------------------------------\
| http://www.cotswoldgliding.co.uk |
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Bill Gribble wrote:

Michel Talon writes
How do you explain otherwise that a lot of people with their exam and
hundred of hours post exam leave the sport? In fact most of the people
who have taken the exam leave after a couple of years since the number
of members is not steadily increasing in clubs, while they regularly
graduate a constant flux of newcomers. At least this is what i see here.

The phenomena of "Been there, done that, got the T-shirt, move onto the
next mountain" perhaps? In anything there have to be natural attrition
points where something that was once a thrill and a pleasure to
participate in when fresh becomes dull and commonplace with repetition
and familiarity.


In my opinion, this is rather related to age. Soaring is well suited for
young people or old ones, not to the intermediate age (approx. 20 to 40).
Youg people having learnt and flown a couple of years later get married,
have children and then have no more money ot time to devote to soaring
until the children are grown up and can live by their own means. Then a
few of them return to soaring.

Michel Talon wrote:

It is *one* obvious deterrent, but not the only one. How do you explain
otherwise that a lot of people with their exam and hundred of hours post
exam leave the sport? In fact most of the people who have taken the exam
leave after a couple of years since the number of members is not
steadily increasing in clubs, while they regularly graduate a constant
flux of newcomers. At least this is what i see here.

Retention is a whole nuther balla wax. In aviation as a whole,
another big factor is macroeconomics. About this time last year,
you coulda set up a nice infant nursery on my local airport
it was so quiet. Economy goes bust, flying goes down.

And with anything there is variance. Alan Greenspan was
once asked what the market would do, and he replied "it will fluctuate."
I've seen some pilots come back to soaring after hiatus
as well...pilots lives wax and wane like any other...
--

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Mark Boyd
Avenal, California, USA