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How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C



 
 
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  #21  
Old June 25th 08, 02:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Gig 601Xl Builder
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Posts: 683
Default How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C

gatt wrote:
Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
Andrew Sarangan wrote:



And yet this happens and causes MASSIVE recalls.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/laptops/a...ery-214322.php



Ford Pintos allegedly exploded, too, but, that didn't kill Ford, let
alone the automobile.


No, but it certainly killed off the Pinto.



About your video: "This isn't a completely legitimate laptop battery
explosion—the folks at PC Pitstop forced a lithium-ion battery into an
unstable state" Didn't NBC or somebody ignite a Ford pickup with a
model rocket engine one time to demonstrate how explosive they are?


The journalistic problem with NBC's action was that they led the
audience to believe that the truck exploded without the addition of the
rocket engine. And yet that didn't change the fact that the saddle bag
tanks were a hazard and had caused fires.



I work in the telecom/internet industry and we have hundreds of laptops
and talk to hundreds of people in the industry with laptops, and I've
never heard of any of them having laptop batteries explode on them.


A simple Google search or better yet a search of the Consumer Product
Safety Commission's website shows that the igniting batteries were real.
Since you mentioned the Pinto. I knew several people that had those as
well and none of them blew-up. That doesn't change the fact that several
did.

Pretty cool video, though, although I have a pound of thermite that says
I can do a better job destroying a laptop...


That would be what NBC would have done. What PC Pitstop did was with
nothing but what came with the laptop.
  #23  
Old June 25th 08, 04:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Dylan Smith
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Default How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C

On 2008-06-25, Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
A simple Google search or better yet a search of the Consumer Product
Safety Commission's website shows that the igniting batteries were real.


How many hundreds of millions of lithium ion batteries are supplied per
year? How many blow up per year?

Any high density energy storage has inherent risks whether it's a
battery or a fuel tank. At least two Boeing 737s have spontaneously
burst into flames, too - so the rate of exploding B737s is much higher
than the rate of exploding Li-Ion batteries, but we still fly 'em.

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
  #24  
Old June 25th 08, 04:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Andrew Sarangan
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Default How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C

On Jun 24, 6:59 am, Scott wrote:
wrote:
In rec.aviation.piloting Andrew Sarangan wrote:


On Jun 21, 11:42 pm, Richard Riley wrote:


On Jun 16, 7:37 pm, Larry Dighera wrote:


How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel


The motor is powered by a 78 pound, custom-built lithium-ion polymer
battery with a power output of "5.6 kilowatt hours"; projected life is
300 to 500 full discharge cycles or more than 1,000 partial cycles.
The battery can be recharged in as little as two hours using a
220-volt charger (or six hours with a 110-volt charger). The cost for
a full recharge is 70 cents with the 110-volt charger. Fishman says
it's feasible to carry a small 110-volt charger as baggage on
cross-country flights.


1 horsepower = .75kw. So 5.6 kilowatt hours is only 7.51 horsepower
hours. Good enough for a short burst to get you to altitude and soar
the thermals, bu you aren't going anywhere cross country.


Compare it to a really inefficient 2 stroke, burning .6 lb/hp-hr.
Your battery is equal to .75 gallons of gas.


The technology is immature, but this is on the right track. When a
suitable battery is invented, there is no arguing that it will easily
replace small gasoline engines.


And when fustion reactors are invented they will replace coal and
fission plants.


And when anti-gravity is invented, it will replace airplanes.


And when...


And battery development is just
getting started, so things can only get better.


Batteries have been under development for well over a hundred years.


We have not invested
in batteries other than for portable electronics.


What do you think powered ALL the world's submerged submarines before
the Nautilus was launched in 1954?


What do you think powers the stuff in torpedoes and missiles and has
for about a half century, an extension cord?


Have you any idea what has powered telephone offices for over a
century?


Do you know what a UPS is and have you ever seen one the size of a
small house?


I am sure many in 1903 argued that a horse drawn carriage could go
much farther and safer than the Wright flyer.


In 1903 both the airplane and the car were new; it is now 105 years
later.


I think his point was that the "standard" lead acid battery has been
around in its basic form and pretty much unchanged for many years. If
that is, in fact, what he means, I agree. Newer technologies have
really only appeared in the last 20-30 years, ie NiCd, NiMh, Lithium
Ion, etc. If we had been working to make "better" batteries as we have
with planes, trains and automobiles, we'd have some pretty sweet
electric power now...just my opinion.

Scott


You can add fuel cells to that list too, as a recent development. But
I am sure one could claim that fuel cells are in the Smithsonian
museum as a century-old technology.

My opinion is that the current oil prices is not a crisis, but a
necessary condition to refocus our technology. No one took electric
powered automobiles seriously when oil was less than $60.

Any transformative technology is not going to happen in a couple of
years. I think 2050 is still very optimistic for fusion power, but
that is still worth investing in. We can't always be thinking of
ourselves and screw the rest after we die. We owe it to our
children.

  #25  
Old June 25th 08, 04:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Larry Dighera
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Default How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:45:44 -0500, Gig 601Xl Builder
wrote in
:

A simple Google search or better yet a search of the Consumer Product
Safety Commission's website shows that the igniting batteries were real.


The Sony manufactured lithium cells were victim of inadequate quality
control during manufacture. Apparently there were burs on metal parts
that could cause shorts within the cells. Lithium cells possess a
comparatively higher energy density, so their failure mode is more
spectacular than older battery technologies.

How many laptop batteries have spontaneously combusted since the Sony
battery recall?

  #26  
Old June 25th 08, 07:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]
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Default How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C

Dylan Smith wrote in
:

On 2008-06-25, Gig 601Xl Builder wrote:
A simple Google search or better yet a search of the Consumer Product
Safety Commission's website shows that the igniting batteries were
real.


How many hundreds of millions of lithium ion batteries are supplied
per year? How many blow up per year?

Any high density energy storage has inherent risks whether it's a
battery or a fuel tank. At least two Boeing 737s have spontaneously
burst into flames, too - so the rate of exploding B737s is much higher
than the rate of exploding Li-Ion batteries, but we still fly 'em.


You mean the refueling accidents? That wasn't spontaneous, they both had
causes, static and wide cut fuel..


Bertie
  #27  
Old June 25th 08, 08:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Dylan Smith
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Posts: 530
Default How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C

On 2008-06-25, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
You mean the refueling accidents? That wasn't spontaneous, they both had
causes, static and wide cut fuel..


One incident I have in mind was a near empty centre tank combined with
an electrical fault - May 1990, Phillippine Air Lines (on the ground, 8
died). There was another one I remember more recently, but I can't find
any information about it (perhaps I've mentally duplicated the
Phillippine Air Lines incident).

All the Li-Ion batteries that have burned have had causes, too. (Faulty
charging circuitry in the main).

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
  #28  
Old June 25th 08, 09:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Larry Dighera
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Posts: 3,953
Default How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C

On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:54:33 +0000 (UTC), Dylan Smith
wrote in
:

All the Li-Ion batteries that have burned have had causes, too. (Faulty
charging circuitry in the main).


I wouldn't expect faulty charging circuitry to be the main cause of
lithium batteries spontaneously catching fire.

Here is the cause of the massive Sony battery recall:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060928-7858.html
They cite microscopic metal particles that enter the battery
during the manufacturing process as the reason for the battery
failures. The particles, they say, come into contact with other
parts of the battery cell, causing the battery to short-circuit.
Sony claims that these batteries would normally just power off,
but in "rare cases" may overheat and cause flames.
  #29  
Old June 25th 08, 09:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Bob Kuykendall
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Posts: 1,345
Default How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C

On Jun 24, 9:45*am, Jim Pennino wrote:

I'm aware of ITER and the fact that *IF* ITER is a success, you can
expect an operational fusion power plant no earlier than 2040, by
which time a good percentage of current posters, including myself,
will be long dead.


I don't see why the long time until payback is an issue. My attitude
is that we've already squandered enough of our grandkids' resources,
the very least we can do is throw them a bone. Comparing the risk/
benefit ratio of ITER with that of other current nonsense like the war
in Iraq, it seems like a no-brainer to me.

And even if ITER doesn't meet full success, the lessons of its failure
will drive all sorts of different technology innovations.

Thanks, Bob K.
  #30  
Old June 25th 08, 10:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting,rec.aviation.homebuilt
Peter Dohm
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Posts: 1,754
Default How Beat The High Cost Of Fuel: The ElectraFlyer-C

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:54:33 +0000 (UTC), Dylan Smith
wrote in
:

All the Li-Ion batteries that have burned have had causes, too. (Faulty
charging circuitry in the main).


I wouldn't expect faulty charging circuitry to be the main cause of
lithium batteries spontaneously catching fire.

Here is the cause of the massive Sony battery recall:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060928-7858.html
They cite microscopic metal particles that enter the battery
during the manufacturing process as the reason for the battery
failures. The particles, they say, come into contact with other
parts of the battery cell, causing the battery to short-circuit.
Sony claims that these batteries would normally just power off,
but in "rare cases" may overheat and cause flames.


IMHO, that is far more frightening than charging problems!

Peter



 




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