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What's the bi-annual flight review all about?



 
 
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  #31  
Old April 17th 09, 03:40 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dudley Henriques[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,546
Default What's the bi-annual flight review all about?

On Apr 16, 9:51*pm, Tman wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote:
I both use and teach the use of checklists for any and all procedures
so recommended by the manufacturer.
I also use and teach mnemonics as a supplement to checklists.


The trick with checklists is not to get bogged down in minutia to the
point where you are checking every nut and bolt. A lot depends on the
equipment being flown.


OK, I want to get specific.
I pulled my C172 POH. *It has "checklist procedures" , but nowhere does
it say to use it as a checklist. *Anyways, the checklist procedures
cover Preflight, Pre-Start, Start, Pre-Takeoff, Takeoff, Climb, Cruise,
Pre-Landing, Landing, After-Landing, Securing Airplane.

*From my sample of experience I have never seen a pilot use a checklist
on all or even half of these procedures. *Is that what you (or anyone
else that opines an honest answer) looks for on a checkride?

And when you use a checklist -- are you looking for it to be used as a
"do-list" or a post-do "check" list.

I can tell you if i had to pull the damn book of cards out every time i
changed phase in flight, and used it as a do-list, it would be
incredibly unnatural, and probably detract from safety.

Anyways, just trying to get more specifics and separate checklist
reality from checklist religion.

TRUE story. *A local flight instructor had a letter to editor published
in a major av magazine admonishing everyone from students to ATP's on
the need for "thorough checklist usage" just about everywhere. *I think
he had the required anecdote on the guy who took off with the control
lock, pitot cover, or one such thing. *Many words were dispensed in the
letter.

I've flown with him and he never pulled the g'darn checklist out or even
hinted I might want to. *Sigh...
T


I believe my answer was specific enough. It is not my desire to change
your opinion about how you use checklists, nor do I wish to argue the
use of checklists on a micro level.
If your aircraft HAS a checklist in my opinion you should USE IT!
For operations with your aircraft where a checklist isn't "officially"
suggested in the POH such as a pre-flight, use common sense.
I'm sitting here looking at the POH for a 1966 Cessna 172. Section 1
includes checklists for all phases of operation in this aircraft.

Do I insist that you go through each item on these checklists and
check it off as you're flying the airplane; NO! As a check pilot, I'm
expecting you to demonstrate a complete knowledge of these items and
to be using the information on these pages in a way that shows proper
planning and execution.
The exact method you use to demonstrate this is entirely up to you as
an applicant.

There will be portions of the flight where I'll expect to see you use
a checklist such as runup and portions of the flight such as the
establishment of a Vy climb attitude for example where I'll expect you
to perform that task with a smooth and thorough flow pattern rather
than staring at a checklist. If this means you are using an
abbreviated checklist or a mnemonic that's up to you. Just don't miss
anything!
Personally, I prefer seeing a flow pattern in a pilot that includes a
verbal touch and affirmation BASED on the operation checklists when
checklists are used.
On most light airplanes, the in-flight checklists can be done using a
Mnemonic which is perfectly acceptable. Demonstrate a flow pattern,
touch it, identify it, use it. The item will be on the checklist but
performed as part of your mnemonic checklist.
Perfectly acceptable!
-DH
  #32  
Old April 17th 09, 04:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Tim[_7_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 48
Default What's the bi-annual flight review all about?


"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
On Apr 16, 9:51 pm, Tman wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote:
I both use and teach the use of checklists for any and all procedures
so recommended by the manufacturer.
I also use and teach mnemonics as a supplement to checklists.


The trick with checklists is not to get bogged down in minutia to the
point where you are checking every nut and bolt. A lot depends on the
equipment being flown.


OK, I want to get specific.
I pulled my C172 POH. It has "checklist procedures" , but nowhere does
it say to use it as a checklist. Anyways, the checklist procedures
cover Preflight, Pre-Start, Start, Pre-Takeoff, Takeoff, Climb, Cruise,
Pre-Landing, Landing, After-Landing, Securing Airplane.

From my sample of experience I have never seen a pilot use a checklist
on all or even half of these procedures. Is that what you (or anyone
else that opines an honest answer) looks for on a checkride?

And when you use a checklist -- are you looking for it to be used as a
"do-list" or a post-do "check" list.

I can tell you if i had to pull the damn book of cards out every time i
changed phase in flight, and used it as a do-list, it would be
incredibly unnatural, and probably detract from safety.

Anyways, just trying to get more specifics and separate checklist
reality from checklist religion.

TRUE story. A local flight instructor had a letter to editor published
in a major av magazine admonishing everyone from students to ATP's on
the need for "thorough checklist usage" just about everywhere. I think
he had the required anecdote on the guy who took off with the control
lock, pitot cover, or one such thing. Many words were dispensed in the
letter.

I've flown with him and he never pulled the g'darn checklist out or even
hinted I might want to. Sigh...
T


I believe my answer was specific enough. It is not my desire to change
your opinion about how you use checklists, nor do I wish to argue the
use of checklists on a micro level.
If your aircraft HAS a checklist in my opinion you should USE IT!
For operations with your aircraft where a checklist isn't "officially"
suggested in the POH such as a pre-flight, use common sense.
I'm sitting here looking at the POH for a 1966 Cessna 172. Section 1
includes checklists for all phases of operation in this aircraft.

Do I insist that you go through each item on these checklists and
check it off as you're flying the airplane; NO! As a check pilot, I'm
expecting you to demonstrate a complete knowledge of these items and
to be using the information on these pages in a way that shows proper
planning and execution.
The exact method you use to demonstrate this is entirely up to you as
an applicant.

There will be portions of the flight where I'll expect to see you use
a checklist such as runup and portions of the flight such as the
establishment of a Vy climb attitude for example where I'll expect you
to perform that task with a smooth and thorough flow pattern rather
than staring at a checklist. If this means you are using an
abbreviated checklist or a mnemonic that's up to you. Just don't miss
anything!
Personally, I prefer seeing a flow pattern in a pilot that includes a
verbal touch and affirmation BASED on the operation checklists when
checklists are used.
On most light airplanes, the in-flight checklists can be done using a
Mnemonic which is perfectly acceptable. Demonstrate a flow pattern,
touch it, identify it, use it. The item will be on the checklist but
performed as part of your mnemonic checklist.
Perfectly acceptable!
-DH

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

And other instructors will vary.


  #33  
Old April 17th 09, 04:19 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dudley Henriques[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,546
Default What's the bi-annual flight review all about?

On Apr 16, 11:09*pm, "Tim" #__#@__.- wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message

...
On Apr 16, 9:51 pm, Tman wrote:



Dudley Henriques wrote:
I both use and teach the use of checklists for any and all procedures
so recommended by the manufacturer.
I also use and teach mnemonics as a supplement to checklists.


The trick with checklists is not to get bogged down in minutia to the
point where you are checking every nut and bolt. A lot depends on the
equipment being flown.


OK, I want to get specific.
I pulled my C172 POH. It has "checklist procedures" , but nowhere does
it say to use it as a checklist. Anyways, the checklist procedures
cover Preflight, Pre-Start, Start, Pre-Takeoff, Takeoff, Climb, Cruise,
Pre-Landing, Landing, After-Landing, Securing Airplane.


From my sample of experience I have never seen a pilot use a checklist
on all or even half of these procedures. Is that what you (or anyone
else that opines an honest answer) looks for on a checkride?


And when you use a checklist -- are you looking for it to be used as a
"do-list" or a post-do "check" list.


I can tell you if i had to pull the damn book of cards out every time i
changed phase in flight, and used it as a do-list, it would be
incredibly unnatural, and probably detract from safety.


Anyways, just trying to get more specifics and separate checklist
reality from checklist religion.


TRUE story. A local flight instructor had a letter to editor published
in a major av magazine admonishing everyone from students to ATP's on
the need for "thorough checklist usage" just about everywhere. I think
he had the required anecdote on the guy who took off with the control
lock, pitot cover, or one such thing. Many words were dispensed in the
letter.


I've flown with him and he never pulled the g'darn checklist out or even
hinted I might want to. Sigh...
T


I believe my answer was specific enough. It is not my desire to change
your opinion about how you use checklists, nor do I wish to argue the
use of checklists on a micro level.
If your aircraft HAS a checklist in my opinion you should USE IT!
For operations with your aircraft where a checklist isn't "officially"
suggested in the POH such as a pre-flight, use common sense.
I'm sitting here looking at the POH for a 1966 Cessna 172. Section 1
includes checklists for all phases of operation in this aircraft.

Do I insist that you go through each item on these checklists and
check it off as you're flying the airplane; NO! As a check pilot, I'm
expecting you to demonstrate a complete knowledge of these items and
to be using the information on these pages in a way that shows proper
planning and execution.
The exact method you use to demonstrate this is entirely up to you as
an applicant.

There will be portions of the flight where I'll expect to see you use
a checklist such as runup and portions of the flight such as the
establishment of a Vy climb attitude for example where I'll expect you
to perform that task with a smooth and thorough flow pattern rather
than staring at a checklist. If this means you are using an
abbreviated checklist or a mnemonic that's up to you. Just don't miss
anything!
Personally, I prefer seeing a flow pattern in a pilot that includes a
verbal touch and affirmation BASED on the operation checklists when
checklists are used.
On most light airplanes, the in-flight checklists can be done using a
Mnemonic which is perfectly acceptable. Demonstrate a flow pattern,
touch it, identify it, use it. The item will be on the checklist but
performed as part of your mnemonic checklist.
Perfectly acceptable!
-DH

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

And other instructors will vary.


That is correct.
-DH
  #34  
Old April 20th 09, 09:29 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Robert M. Gary
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,767
Default What's the bi-annual flight review all about?

On Apr 15, 7:45*am, wrote:
Dallas wrote:
On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 19:30:00 GMT, wrote:


It isn't a "test" as there is no failing


Not getting the sign off means you failed.


If you don't get a sign off it means you are totally incompetant as a
pilot.


That's not true. I've failed to sign off applicants before who just
needed another hour or so of dual. Even current pilots may have
problems with crosswind landings, etc. The FAA has, so far, provided
very little guidence on what must be included in a BFR. Compare that
to the IPC which is laid out in very specific detail in the IR PTS.
Its up to the instructor when it comes to the BFR. Sadly, the last BFR
I did was for a guy with thousands of hours, very current, but nearing
80. I don't think he understood how much of his piloting skills he'd
lost with age, even though he was flying regularly. I was not able to
sign him off after another 2 hours of dual so I had him fly with
another instructor. That instructor came to the same conclusion. Its
sad, I hope he eventually gets his BFR but right now he can't even
remember to tune the radio before calling tower and would have busted
airspace several times during our ride had I not tuned the radio for
him.

-Robert, CFII
  #35  
Old April 30th 09, 04:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dylan Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 530
Default What's the bi-annual flight review all about?

On 2009-04-14, Dallas wrote:

What's the bi-annual flight review all about?

I haven't been through one yet.. how tough are they? Is this like a
mini-practical test with stalls, engine outs and a tough verbal exam etc..


It can be whatever you and the instructor want to make of it.

If I have to do a BFR (I did one in March) if possible I want to do
something new, and things I've not done in a while. For example, in my
last one, I did it in a rather nice late model A36 Bonanza with a flight
director and a rather good autopilot, complete with things like altitude
preselect (about the only thing it seemed to lack was autothrottle!) My
own aircraft is an ancient VFR day only type, so I have little
opportunity to learn about this stuff for real. Also, the Bonanza is
just a touch faster than what I usually fly, so I could use the BFR to
see if I could still think at "170 knots" rather than the 90 knots I was
more used to.

Aside from finding out how the flight director works in the real world,
we also did some typical airwork type exercises.

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
  #36  
Old April 30th 09, 05:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Ross
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 463
Default What's the bi-annual flight review all about?

Dylan Smith wrote:
On 2009-04-14, Dallas wrote:
What's the bi-annual flight review all about?

I haven't been through one yet.. how tough are they? Is this like a
mini-practical test with stalls, engine outs and a tough verbal exam etc..


It can be whatever you and the instructor want to make of it.

If I have to do a BFR (I did one in March) if possible I want to do
something new, and things I've not done in a while. For example, in my
last one, I did it in a rather nice late model A36 Bonanza with a flight
director and a rather good autopilot, complete with things like altitude
preselect (about the only thing it seemed to lack was autothrottle!) My
own aircraft is an ancient VFR day only type, so I have little
opportunity to learn about this stuff for real. Also, the Bonanza is
just a touch faster than what I usually fly, so I could use the BFR to
see if I could still think at "170 knots" rather than the 90 knots I was
more used to.

Aside from finding out how the flight director works in the real world,
we also did some typical airwork type exercises.


What was the cost of the A36 if I may ask and what did you usually fly
at 90kts?

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
Sold
KSWI
  #37  
Old April 30th 09, 09:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
vaughn
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 93
Default What's the bi-annual flight review all about?


"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
...
On 2009-04-14, Dallas wrote:

What's the bi-annual flight review all about?


It can be whatever you and the instructor want to make of it.


That is the best answer so far!

As the customer, I usually come to a flight review with a few ideas of my
own. If they take some extra time to accomplish, so be it. I have never
had a CFI refuse me. As a strictly VFR pilot, one thing I always insist on
is some hood time. Typically, it has been 2 years since the last time I got
the chance.

Vaughn


  #38  
Old May 1st 09, 09:35 AM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Stealth Pilot[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 846
Default What's the bi-annual flight review all about?

On Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:55:04 -0500, Dallas
wrote:


What's the bi-annual flight review all about?

I haven't been through one yet.. how tough are they? Is this like a
mini-practical test with stalls, engine outs and a tough verbal exam etc..
or is it more like an informal "Can he still fly an airplane and still
understands the basics?"


fly a single seat aircraft for your last 10 hours :-)
  #39  
Old May 1st 09, 12:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Dylan Smith
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 530
Default What's the bi-annual flight review all about?

On 2009-04-30, Ross wrote:
What was the cost of the A36 if I may ask and what did you usually fly
at 90kts?


Since it belonged to the instructor's brother-in-law, fortunately only
the cost of the fuel! (It burns 13.8 gph in cruise, at 170 knots. It has
GAMIjectors too which allows LOP operation. A fantastic plane...if only
I could afford one :-))

My usual mount is an Auster Autocrat built in late 1945. (It looks very
similar to the Taylorcraft BC-12, except it has flaps and the windows
are different - that's because the Austers from that period are British
built Taylorcrafts! However, instead of the Continental A-65 that you'd
expect to find in a BC-12, it has a 160 hp Lycoming O-320 which makes it
climb *rather better* and turns it into a really good aircraft for short
airfields and towing gliders. But not cruise an awful lot faster without
turning a lot of avgas into noise).

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
  #40  
Old May 1st 09, 03:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.piloting
Allen[_1_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 252
Default What's the bi-annual flight review all about?



"Dylan Smith" wrote in message
...
On 2009-04-30, Ross wrote:
What was the cost of the A36 if I may ask and what did you usually fly
at 90kts?


Since it belonged to the instructor's brother-in-law, fortunately only
the cost of the fuel! (It burns 13.8 gph in cruise, at 170 knots. It has
GAMIjectors too which allows LOP operation. A fantastic plane...if only
I could afford one :-))


GAMI injectors do not "allow" you to run LOP, they facilitate it. If the
airplane did not have a TCM IO-550-B engine then you are operating it
against the manufacturers specifications.

Allen


 




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