High time airframe question

Assuming proper maintanence and a good airframe log/book inspection,
are there any concerns about high time airframes, like insurability,
etc? My partners and I are looking at a warrior with over 11,000
AFTT.

In article
,
xyzzy wrote:

Assuming proper maintanence and a good airframe log/book inspection,
are there any concerns about high time airframes, like insurability,
etc? My partners and I are looking at a warrior with over 11,000
AFTT.

What does Piper have to say about the life-limits of their airframes?
I know I have seen numbers somewhere, but I do not know where to find
them.

xyzzy wrote:
Assuming proper maintanence and a good airframe log/book inspection,
are there any concerns about high time airframes, like insurability,
etc? My partners and I are looking at a warrior with over 11,000
AFTT.

There is no life limit on the Warrior airframe. The only Piper I know of
that has a limit is the wing/spar structure on the Tomahawk (around 11K hrs.,
IIRC).

I'd take an old airframe that has been well maintained over a low time
airframe that's spent it's life sitting parked. Last year I flew a rental
Warrior with more than 14,000 hrs. on the airframe. It was in better shape
than most of the personally owned low time aircraft on the field.

John Galban=====N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums...ation/200807/1

"xyzzy" wrote in message
...
Assuming proper maintanence and a good airframe log/book inspection,
are there any concerns about high time airframes, like insurability,
etc? My partners and I are looking at a warrior with over 11,000
AFTT.

I've never heard of an insurance company caring, but that's not to say
there's not some out there as they all seem to march to the beat of their
own drummer.

Many people seem to care about aircraft total time, so obviously it does
affect resale to some extent and right or wrong that should be a
consideration because it affects what the aircraft is worth on the open
market. I would personally be much more concerned about an aircraft that's
sat around in some field with grass growing around it for years on end.
High time generally means the aircraft has been regularly flown, well
maintained, and upgraded for it's entire life. My airplane has almost
9,000 hrs and I'm not at all worried about it. I know a guy that owns a 172
with over 17,000 hrs on it and it's still going strong.

On Jul 17, 3:45*pm, "Mike" wrote:

Many people seem to care about aircraft total time, so obviously it does
affect resale to some extent and right or wrong that should be a
consideration because it affects what the aircraft is worth on the open
market. *I would personally be much more concerned about an aircraft that's
sat around in some field with grass growing around it for years on end.
High time generally means the aircraft has been regularly flown, well
maintained, and *upgraded for it's entire life. *My airplane has almost
9,000 hrs and I'm not at all worried about it. *I know a guy that owns a 172
with over 17,000 hrs on it and it's still going strong.

I think that's a concern in the industry though. As our fleet ages we
may find that planes will start falling from the sky at some point.
Boeing puts limits on how many cycles a plane can have. It would make
sense too that a spar can only flex so many times, wouldn't it (I'm
not metal expert though)?

-Robert

9,000 hrs and I'm not at all worried about it. I know a guy that owns a
172 with over 17,000 hrs on it and it's still going strong.

That's still less than two years in the air. Unless that time was spent
entirely doing touch & goes (which, I suppose, is possible in a 172?),
shouldn't be any problem.

Good maintenance is the key.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
Ercoupe N94856
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

In article
,
xyzzy wrote:

Assuming proper maintanence and a good airframe log/book inspection,
are there any concerns about high time airframes, like insurability,
etc? My partners and I are looking at a warrior with over 11,000
AFTT.

It is the KIND of time in those 11000 hours that matters. If the plane
has spent most of its time in the air, with only a couple of pilots,
rather than as a student pilot hack, it is a far more attractive
proposition.

There can be far more abused airplanes, with much lower time on them,
out there.

I recall an auction of a C185 that had high time and had spent life in
Alaska as a seaplane. I wouldn't have touched that one with a 10-foot
pole!

--
Remove _'s from email address to talk to me.

Robert M. Gary wrote:
On Jul 17, 3:45 pm, "Mike" wrote:

Many people seem to care about aircraft total time, so obviously it does
affect resale to some extent and right or wrong that should be a
consideration because it affects what the aircraft is worth on the open
market. I would personally be much more concerned about an aircraft that's
sat around in some field with grass growing around it for years on end.
High time generally means the aircraft has been regularly flown, well
maintained, and upgraded for it's entire life. My airplane has almost
9,000 hrs and I'm not at all worried about it. I know a guy that owns a 172
with over 17,000 hrs on it and it's still going strong.

I think that's a concern in the industry though. As our fleet ages we
may find that planes will start falling from the sky at some point.
Boeing puts limits on how many cycles a plane can have. It would make
sense too that a spar can only flex so many times, wouldn't it (I'm
not metal expert though)?

I think the greater issue with airliners is
the pressurization/depressurization cycles,
not the landings.

xyzzy wrote:
Assuming proper maintanence and a good airframe log/book inspection,
are there any concerns about high time airframes, like insurability,
etc? My partners and I are looking at a warrior with over 11,000
AFTT.


In this market why would you screw with an airframe with that high of a
total time?

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:42:20 -0700 (PDT), xyzzy
wrote:

Assuming proper maintanence and a good airframe log/book inspection,
are there any concerns about high time airframes, like insurability,
etc? My partners and I are looking at a warrior with over 11,000
AFTT.

the theoretical concern with high time aluminium aircraft is due to a
property of fatigue in aluminium.
in steel you can subject a component to stresses below a certain
threshold for as long as you like and it will not suffer fatigue.
Aluminium does not have that threshold. all loadings over the life of
the aircraft no matter how small gradually eat into the fatigue life
of the aircraft.

the rub is that 11000 hours doesnt tell you how may pieces of bad
turbulence it has encountered, how many thumper landings it has
suffered, how many times it has been flogged around overloaded, how
many high G manouvers it has enjoyed. so although you know it has done
11000 hours you have no idea how much has been eaten out of the
fatigue life of the aircraft.

our australian authorities are paranoid about this aspect of older
aircraft, however there has never been tinseled aircraft to give
weight to the fears.
the aircraft that have broken up in midair in australia have mainly
been designs like the aerocommander where it has been realised that
the stressing of the bent centre wing joint has substantially
underestimated the actual loads on the spar.

in the case of the warrior, let your eyes be the guide. fatigue leads
to cracking in thin skins and in fittings. does a close visual
inspection show deterioration in stressed areas?

the other problem you'll have is that the design life of the aircraft
was passed many years ago. some aspects of the construction work
against a long life. corrosion in the bare metal in the lap joints in
the skins can be a problem area. dissimilar metals in the wing attach
points can be a problem. areas of poor ventilation down in the flaps
can lead to intergranular corrosion. have a *good* look.

one other thing to consider is where you are going to fly it. if it
has lived 11000hours in the desert, taking it down to the coast and
parking it overnight on the grass will destroy it in quick time no
matter how good it was.

it could be a very good buy or it could be a lemon. only you can
decide this by very careful inspection of all the aircraft.

I was once interested in a warrior that was going at a good price.
I thought it not a good buy but a local LAME (A&P) obviously thought
us a bunch of mugs because he outbid us and got the aircraft.
It never actually returned to flying. in his haste he overlooked the
actual condition of the aircraft and went on the signed off logs.
the aircraft was actually totally shot in subtle ways and was
scrapped.

open your eyes. check it out carefully and have the balls to follow
through with what you decide.
remember, you dont have to buy *this* aircraft.

Stealth Pilot