A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Soaring
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Soaring Schools



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old December 8th 17, 05:09 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 107
Default Soaring Schools

I flew with Bruce and Jason last February for a glider add on to my instructor certificate. I give them two thumbs up all around! No matter what the weather is doing anywhere else in the world it's always sunny in Arizona. What ever your experience level they have an aircraft and instructor to suit you. The bunk house is a few steps above camping, but it's all you need. I recommend calling them and get a list of things to study before showing up.. If you do that the experience is more vacation like and less stressful. Give yourself an extra day before check ride and departure in case your check ride doesn't go as planed. You can always use the extra day to do some acro with Jason in the Fox or getting an aircraft check out in some thing more interesting.
  #12  
Old December 9th 17, 12:14 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JB Gunner
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13
Default Soaring Schools

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 12:39:37 AM UTC-5, John Foster wrote:
Is there a general consensus on which schools are regarded as the "best" for glider training? I realize this is difficult to compare, as there are lots of good instructors all over the place, but if someone were interested in taking a block of time off and going somewhere to learn how to fly gliders and get there license to do so privately, where would you recommend?


I used AZ soaring just outside of Phoenix like a few others have posted this October. It was a great experience. I stayed in a hotel in Phoenix about 35 minute drive away. Instructor was Bruce and he did a excellent job. Great little airport for gliders.
  #13  
Old December 11th 17, 04:34 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 37
Default Soaring Schools

I've been getting excellent instruction at the Chilhowee Gilderport in Benton, TN, and highly recommend it.

http://www.chilhowee.com

Matt
  #14  
Old December 12th 17, 11:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Foster
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 354
Default Soaring Schools

On Monday, December 11, 2017 at 8:34:19 AM UTC-7, wrote:
I've been getting excellent instruction at the Chilhowee Gilderport in Benton, TN, and highly recommend it.

http://www.chilhowee.com

Matt


I love that area. Spent springs and falls riding mountain bikes up and down the trail from Lake Ocoee to the top of the mountain. And then waterskiing on Lake Ocoee. Good times. Never did any flying around there, but from what I remember, it would be a great place.
  #15  
Old December 18th 17, 09:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 36
Default Soaring Schools

I've been a CFI-G since 1971, instructed in many settings (both commercial, though not recently, and 5 different clubs) ... and I am afraid that I don't think your question is answerable without knowing both more about your background, and then also your intent.

Do you have other flying experience? Or starting from scratch?

What is your goal? Is it just to solo, that's it? Honestly, that's OK if so.

If your goal is to actually go on from that in soaring ... then you need to pick your milieu to make that possible ... and that's a more involved question.
  #16  
Old December 21st 17, 08:02 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Foster
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 354
Default Soaring Schools

On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 1:40:34 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I've been a CFI-G since 1971, instructed in many settings (both commercial, though not recently, and 5 different clubs) ... and I am afraid that I don't think your question is answerable without knowing both more about your background, and then also your intent.

Do you have other flying experience? Or starting from scratch?

What is your goal? Is it just to solo, that's it? Honestly, that's OK if so.

If your goal is to actually go on from that in soaring ... then you need to pick your milieu to make that possible ... and that's a more involved question.


Thanks for the thoughtful response. I am not a pilot. I have handled the controls and taken a few turns in a 150 and 172, but that doesn't count. I completed ground school in the early 90s, but didn't have the money to get in the air. I have flown RC model gliders (slope soaring) quite a bit though. Even designed and flew my own 60" foam-core/fiberglass body ship, until I crashed it. I hope to fly the slopes in the mountains locally where I live in MT, but there is no local club. I would like to try cross-country flying as wellThere is a municipal airport about 2 miles from my house though, that serves Air Tractors during wildland fire season in the summer. There is only one glider club/school listed in MT (Bozeman) on the SSA website, which is a good 4hr drive from where I live. There is another in Spokane, WA, which is only 3hrs away, but those are the closest options. If I'm going to drive that far, then it's not practical to do one day a week or month. Better to take a block of time and get as much training as possible during that time, and for that, distance isn't as much of an issue. I believe the area we live in locally has TREMENDOUS potential for glider flying, and would like to ultimately get a club "off the ground" here. Of course, our local mountains may prove to be nothing worth flying once I actually do it though. I may not know what I'm talking about. They certainly are beautiful though.
  #17  
Old December 21st 17, 10:44 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 961
Default Soaring Schools

On Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 8:39:37 AM UTC+3, John Foster wrote:
Is there a general consensus on which schools are regarded as the "best" for glider training? I realize this is difficult to compare, as there are lots of good instructors all over the place, but if someone were interested in taking a block of time off and going somewhere to learn how to fly gliders and get there license to do so privately, where would you recommend?


If you want to do it in the next couple of months (the southern summer) then come to the Wellington Gliding Club, now operating from a dedicated gliding field at Greytown. Training is in a pair of 18m DG1000, with a SkyLaunch winch to get off the ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8nd3kCqpWs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9rarYS40Zg

  #18  
Old December 21st 17, 06:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 36
Default Soaring Schools

OK John -- now that I understand your situation, I can make some suggestions ... I am not sure that what I am going to say will be what you or others might want to hear (indeed I wonder if this will generate any flames), but this is my experience --

0. -- a "zeroth thing:" when you are learning to fly frequency matters enormously. If you cannot fly at least once a week ... you are basically wasting your time, you'll make next to no progress. This is why "residential" commercial soaring schools can make sense -- you fly A LOT. The obverse of this is the bane of long-distance membership in a club ... and few clubs operate every day of the week, and many are generally weekends only.

1. It's pretty easy to solo (really!) -- and there are various degrees of soloing (more about that), but the hard problem for most beginning soaring pilots is to make the transition from having gotten solo, to actually being a confident glider pilot who can fly cross-country. As an old-timer CFI-G .... there's nothing more frustrating than doing the work to train a student to solo, maybe even pass the Private Pilot's Exam (PPE) and then see them disappear from the sport.

And sadly, that is more the norm than the exception.

2. LOTS of soaring pilots drive 3 hours each way -- I did for years; first living in the Bay Area and going out to Minden, then living in Seattle and going out to Ephrata. One usually does this by either bunking there one way or another... 3 day weekends etc.

3. If there are no local soaring enthusiasts and you are truly determined to be able to fly from someplace close to home then you have two choices -- get to the point where you can fly a motor-glider & buy one (this comes with limitations and is expensive) ... or ... start a soaring club! That's not as impossible as it may appear, if you can find enough like-minded people (like maybe 10). This means finding/arranging for a local tow-plane and persuading a CFI-G to come to you ... this is not out of the question (among other things often they are power pilots too, and that speeds their commute compared to yours).

Now, as far as "getting solo" there are (typically) very substantial differences in the commercial training and club-training settings. Commercial training is fast, expensive, and really oriented toward that solo. In almost all cases in the US commercial training is done in a SGS 2-33 ... a very safe, easy to fly, rugged glider. But this will postpone "the transition" to something that flies (and lands, the hard part) like a modern sailplane ... and the sad fact of the matter AFAIS is that most people who train commercially in 2-33s never go beyond solo, most don't even transition into a 1-26 (a fun low-performance single-seater that is a reasonable transition from a 2-33).

For years the "more advanced" trainer was the Blanik L-13, unfortunately an FAA airworthiness directive grounded them all. There is a successor to the L-13, the L-23, but it isn't all that common. Most instructors (me included) don't like it as much as the L-13, and they are disliked for being maintenance pigs. My club got rid of 2 of them for the latter reason.

The loss of L-13s has shifted most commercial operations back to training in 2-33s exclusively ... and as the gap between 2-33 performance and modern sailplane performance (and flying technique) grows fewer solo students stick with the sport, and I think that this is one of the things that is killing the sport in the US.

In Europe now the standard trainers are the Grob 103, the ASK-21 ... and gasp ... the DuoDiscus!

Given what I see as the realities -- here are my suggestions

If you can find a competent power CFI and arrange access to a Champ or Citabria or possibly J-3 cub (less attractive for some subtle reasons) in your area, my advice is learn to fly that first ... at least through solo, maybe all the way through the PPE.

This will be really efficient, and close to home. And if you can REALLY fly a Champ or Citabria, PARTICULARLY if you can do unruffled full-stall landings in a 10 kt crosswind ... then you can transition into sailplanes really quickly. The ability to land a taildragger in a a crosswind is exactly the skill set needed to transition into a higher-performance sailplane (although the "sight picture" is quite different.)

The 2-33 flies like a Champ without an engine -- I have literally done two tows in a 2-33 with a really experienced power CFI who flew taildraggers really well, said "go fly it solo" ... and he was entirely ready to do that.

From that skill base you can transition quickly to a 1-26, and after a bit of that transition from there if you want to.

The other way is to find training in a G-103 or ASK-21 (the latter are rare in the US). Mostly these will be clubs. Training in the club setting is very different than training at a commercial operation -- you put in a LOT more labor contribution, also a lot more "standing around time." And instructors in clubs (like me!) are usually much less eager to just get you solo ... why do that? Instruction (per se) is almost always free or very low cost in clubs, so there's no incentive (properly seen) to solo early, why take that risk?

I don't like to solo students until they are very close to PP performance -- you only need 10 solo flights and 2 hours (and some more instruction) before taking the PP exam ... there's no incentive in the club setting for early solo, when the goal is to get you through to really being a soaring pilot.
  #19  
Old December 21st 17, 09:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Foster
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 354
Default Soaring Schools

Thanks again for a well thought out and reasoned reply. The one facility here in Bozeman MT has both a 2-33 and a duo discus that they can use for training. Right now that is the way I’m leaning: schedule a week off and drive the 4hrs or so and take the lessons there untilim competent in the “glass ship”.

You may also see a new post in the future from me regarding what is needed to get a glider club up and running. :-)
  #20  
Old December 21st 17, 09:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Foster
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 354
Default Soaring Schools

On Thursday, December 21, 2017 at 10:08:21 AM UTC-7, wrote:
OK John -- now that I understand your situation, I can make some suggestions ... I am not sure that what I am going to say will be what you or others might want to hear (indeed I wonder if this will generate any flames), but this is my experience --

0. -- a "zeroth thing:" when you are learning to fly frequency matters enormously. If you cannot fly at least once a week ... you are basically wasting your time, you'll make next to no progress. This is why "residential" commercial soaring schools can make sense -- you fly A LOT. The obverse of this is the bane of long-distance membership in a club ... and few clubs operate every day of the week, and many are generally weekends only.

1. It's pretty easy to solo (really!) -- and there are various degrees of soloing (more about that), but the hard problem for most beginning soaring pilots is to make the transition from having gotten solo, to actually being a confident glider pilot who can fly cross-country. As an old-timer CFI-G ... there's nothing more frustrating than doing the work to train a student to solo, maybe even pass the Private Pilot's Exam (PPE) and then see them disappear from the sport.

And sadly, that is more the norm than the exception.

2. LOTS of soaring pilots drive 3 hours each way -- I did for years; first living in the Bay Area and going out to Minden, then living in Seattle and going out to Ephrata. One usually does this by either bunking there one way or another... 3 day weekends etc.

3. If there are no local soaring enthusiasts and you are truly determined to be able to fly from someplace close to home then you have two choices -- get to the point where you can fly a motor-glider & buy one (this comes with limitations and is expensive) ... or ... start a soaring club! That's not as impossible as it may appear, if you can find enough like-minded people (like maybe 10). This means finding/arranging for a local tow-plane and persuading a CFI-G to come to you ... this is not out of the question (among other things often they are power pilots too, and that speeds their commute compared to yours).

Now, as far as "getting solo" there are (typically) very substantial differences in the commercial training and club-training settings. Commercial training is fast, expensive, and really oriented toward that solo. In almost all cases in the US commercial training is done in a SGS 2-33 ... a very safe, easy to fly, rugged glider. But this will postpone "the transition" to something that flies (and lands, the hard part) like a modern sailplane ... and the sad fact of the matter AFAIS is that most people who train commercially in 2-33s never go beyond solo, most don't even transition into a 1-26 (a fun low-performance single-seater that is a reasonable transition from a 2-33).

For years the "more advanced" trainer was the Blanik L-13, unfortunately an FAA airworthiness directive grounded them all. There is a successor to the L-13, the L-23, but it isn't all that common. Most instructors (me included) don't like it as much as the L-13, and they are disliked for being maintenance pigs. My club got rid of 2 of them for the latter reason.

The loss of L-13s has shifted most commercial operations back to training in 2-33s exclusively ... and as the gap between 2-33 performance and modern sailplane performance (and flying technique) grows fewer solo students stick with the sport, and I think that this is one of the things that is killing the sport in the US.

In Europe now the standard trainers are the Grob 103, the ASK-21 ... and gasp ... the DuoDiscus!

Given what I see as the realities -- here are my suggestions

If you can find a competent power CFI and arrange access to a Champ or Citabria or possibly J-3 cub (less attractive for some subtle reasons) in your area, my advice is learn to fly that first ... at least through solo, maybe all the way through the PPE.

This will be really efficient, and close to home. And if you can REALLY fly a Champ or Citabria, PARTICULARLY if you can do unruffled full-stall landings in a 10 kt crosswind ... then you can transition into sailplanes really quickly. The ability to land a taildragger in a a crosswind is exactly the skill set needed to transition into a higher-performance sailplane (although the "sight picture" is quite different.)

The 2-33 flies like a Champ without an engine -- I have literally done two tows in a 2-33 with a really experienced power CFI who flew taildraggers really well, said "go fly it solo" ... and he was entirely ready to do that..

From that skill base you can transition quickly to a 1-26, and after a bit of that transition from there if you want to.

The other way is to find training in a G-103 or ASK-21 (the latter are rare in the US). Mostly these will be clubs. Training in the club setting is very different than training at a commercial operation -- you put in a LOT more labor contribution, also a lot more "standing around time." And instructors in clubs (like me!) are usually much less eager to just get you solo ... why do that? Instruction (per se) is almost always free or very low cost in clubs, so there's no incentive (properly seen) to solo early, why take that risk?

I don't like to solo students until they are very close to PP performance -- you only need 10 solo flights and 2 hours (and some more instruction) before taking the PP exam ... there's no incentive in the club setting for early solo, when the goal is to get you through to really being a soaring pilot.

But if you come into a club solo or better in a Champ, you will move through that training quickly.

A good club offers you the support of experienced soaring pilots flying "glass birds" to help you make the transition to being a real soaring pilot. That's a longer and more subtle transition.


Thanks for another well-thought out and reasoned reply. I appreciate your thoughtfulness. I have contacted the training program in Bozeman, MT, and apparently they use both a 2-33 as well as a Duo Discus. This is the direction I am leaning, and will likely go--take a week off and drive the 4hrs or so and get as much training as possible during that time. And then repeat as often as necessary/possible.

You will also likely see another thread from me in the near future regarding what is involved to get a glider club off the ground. I see so much potential for our local area, and it will be an integral component in getting me more flight time! :-)
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
141 Schools RC_Moonpie Piloting 30 May 13th 08 02:41 PM
UK Gliding schools Trevor Bailey Soaring 9 January 4th 06 12:05 AM
Any Experiences with these schools? gregg Aerobatics 5 December 31st 05 05:06 PM
Deciding between two schools. John Rotorcraft 0 August 16th 04 04:55 AM
Schools timeh Piloting 2 April 27th 04 11:35 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.