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#1
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
Spins have NEVER been in the private pilot PTS. The PTS (Practical Test
Standard) only has been in existence for around 20 years or so. The last time spins were required for a Private Certificate was back in the early 1950's or maybe the late 1940's. Note that there is nothing that prevents an instructor from teaching spins to a student pilot. However you would have to wear parachutes to be legal since the regs only allow spins without the wearing of parachutes for people training for a flight instructor certificate. The predecessor for the PTS was the Flight Test Guides. These were slim volumes of not more than 20 pages and about 2 or 3 inches wide and about 4 inches high. In any case they were smaller than a 3 by 5 index card. they had very broad descriptions of maneuvers' and gave examiners and inspectors wide latitude in what and how they wanted you to perform various maneuvers. Part 61 was actually a much better regulation then in that it clearly made the CFI responsible for preparing a competent pilot that was able to show good judgment. The predecessor regs and guidance was to list the actual maneuvers in the reg. If you could get a monkey to somehow do the maneuver a certificate would be issued. Tom Inglima "Chris G." nospam@noemail wrote in message eenews.net... Besides, spin training is NOT required for a private pilot certificate. Spin AWARENESS (aka recognizing you're going to get into a spin) is required. Spins are not part of the PTS anymore though. I don't necessarily think that omitting spins from the PTS is the best move the FAA has made, but I don't know the whole story. I know I'm having my instructor make sure he teaches me spins in the 150 I'm learning in. I believe that training in spins and spin recovery is a very important skills that could save my life one day. Chris wrote: On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:46:42 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder" wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote: wrote in message ... On 27 Apr 2005 09:43:30 -0700, "Noah Fiedel" wrote: In addition, were you & your instructor wearing parachutes as required for aerobatic flight? Not required, since spin training is required for a rating. Looked to me like a roll not a spin. Oooops. Never mind. |
#2
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
Note that what is said here is not true. The regs say that you can teach
any maneuver that is "required for a rating" without parachutes. This includes spins. You can teach a student spins without a parachute(s) if you wish. Jim Note that there is nothing that prevents an instructor from teaching spins to a student pilot. However you would have to wear parachutes to be legal since the regs only allow spins without the wearing of parachutes for people training for a flight instructor certificate. |
#3
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
A CFI may instruct spins to any level of pilot without
parachutes being worn. The spin is required for the CFI applicant, but since it is required for some level of certificate, it may be taught to any pilot. Of course no passengers may be aboard, just the CFI and the "student." 91.307 (c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds- (1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or (2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon. (d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to- (1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or (2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by- (i) A certificated flight instructor; or (ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with §61.67 of this chapter "Tom Inglima" wrote in message .. . | Spins have NEVER been in the private pilot PTS. The PTS (Practical Test | Standard) only has been in existence for around 20 years or so. The last | time spins were required for a Private Certificate was back in the early | 1950's or maybe the late 1940's. Note that there is nothing that prevents | an instructor from teaching spins to a student pilot. However you would | have to wear parachutes to be legal since the regs only allow spins without | the wearing of parachutes for people training for a flight instructor | certificate. | | The predecessor for the PTS was the Flight Test Guides. These were slim | volumes of not more than 20 pages and about 2 or 3 inches wide and about 4 | inches high. In any case they were smaller than a 3 by 5 index card. they | had very broad descriptions of maneuvers' and gave examiners and inspectors | wide latitude in what and how they wanted you to perform various maneuvers. | Part 61 was actually a much better regulation then in that it clearly made | the CFI responsible for preparing a competent pilot that was able to show | good judgment. | | The predecessor regs and guidance was to list the actual maneuvers in the | reg. If you could get a monkey to somehow do the maneuver a certificate | would be issued. | | Tom Inglima | | "Chris G." nospam@noemail wrote in message | eenews.net... | Besides, spin training is NOT required for a private pilot certificate. | Spin AWARENESS (aka recognizing you're going to get into a spin) is | required. Spins are not part of the PTS anymore though. | | I don't necessarily think that omitting spins from the PTS is the best | move the FAA has made, but I don't know the whole story. I know I'm | having my instructor make sure he teaches me spins in the 150 I'm learning | in. I believe that training in spins and spin recovery is a very | important skills that could save my life one day. | | Chris | | | wrote: | On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 14:46:42 -0500, "Gig 601XL Builder" | wr.giacona@coxDOTnet wrote: | | | wrote in message | ... | | On 27 Apr 2005 09:43:30 -0700, "Noah Fiedel" | wrote: | | | In addition, were you & your instructor wearing parachutes | as required for aerobatic flight? | | | Not required, since spin training is required for a rating. | | Looked to me like a roll not a spin. | | | Oooops. | | Never mind. | | | | |
#4
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
RST Engineering wrote:
Note that what is said here is not true. The regs say that you can teach any maneuver that is "required for a rating" without parachutes. This includes spins. You can teach a student spins without a parachute(s) if you wish. Actually the regulation specifically mentions spins. It doesn't matter they were required for a rating or not. The "required for a rating" part applies to the "and other maonouvers". The FAA has affirmed that once a manouver is required in training (not necessarily for the checkride) for any rating it's fare game for ANY instructional use at any time. Except of course, while using MSFS. |
#5
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PED Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
Actually the regulation specifically mentions spins. It doesn't
matter they were required for a rating or not. Well, not quite. See below: (2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by- That is, "Spins and other...", which means something different from "Spins, and other..." Jose -- Humans are pack animals. Above all things, they have a deep need to follow something, be it a leader, a creed, or a mob. Whosoever fully understands this holds the world in his hands. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#6
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
"RST Engineering" wrote in message
... Note that what is said here is not true. The regs say that you can teach any maneuver that is "required for a rating" without parachutes. This includes spins. You can teach a student spins without a parachute(s) if you wish. Jim And, one could consider the fact that wearing a parachute or not won't make one bit of difference (at least as far as survival is concerned) in 90+% of the aircraft used for training if one were to find a spin to be unrecoverable and/or if one were to pull the wings off. For the parachute to do any good, you would have to be able to open the door far enough to actually get out of the airplane. You could do it in a Citabria or 150 Acro with the door release - or something like a Cub. But anything else? Naah... But, of course, if one were to die inside the aircraft, having a 'chute on should be enough to assure that one would go to heaven since he and/or she would have died while complying with FAA regulations. The rest of us will end up in a significantly less comforable environment, eh? Personally I think spins are fun. -- Geoff The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate. |
#7
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
The last time spins were required for a Private Certificate was back in the early
1950's or maybe the late 1940's. I can verify that spins were required in 1947. vince norris |
#8
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com wrote in message And, one could consider the fact that wearing a parachute or not won't make one bit of difference (at least as far as survival is concerned) in 90+% of the aircraft used for training if one were to find a spin to be unrecoverable and/or if one were to pull the wings off. Why would you say this? The door would be fairly easy to open in a spin. In a high speed loss of control it might be very difficult to overcome aerodynamic resistance but it is possible to open a forward hinged door and force it open enough to squeeze out at even 100kts in straight flight. With a modern canopy you stand a chance of a survivable deployment at even a few hundred feet. The only reason I responded to the post is to encourage anyone wearing a parachute to drill the procedure like any other flying skill (and I know this was a casual usenet post, but avoid those negative thoughts). 1. Jettison the canopy/pull the door release pins (if so equipped) 2. Grasp the door frame/strut with one hand 3. Then, release the seat belt(s) with the other hand 4. pull clear and jump 5. assume the hard arch position, look, grasp the ripcord with both hands and pull to full arm extension until the cables clear the housing. 6. Discard the ripcord handle and look over your right shoulder. There was a series of articles in Soaring/Sport Aerobatics a few years ago: http://www.silverparachutes.com/uplo...PROCEDURES.htm I would encourage anyone to make a recreational jump, even a tandem, to familiarize themselves with the experience. You may find it opens the door to a whole new expression of aviation; after all riding in a boat ain't swimming and by the same token sitting in an airplane isn't really flying ... Stay Lucky, Todd |
#9
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
In rec.aviation.student Todd W. Deckard wrote:
I would encourage anyone to make a recreational jump, even a tandem, to familiarize themselves with the experience. You may find it opens the door to a whole new expression of aviation; after all riding in a boat ain't swimming and by the same token sitting in an airplane isn't really flying ... Neither is dropping straight down to the earth. .... Alan -- Alan Gerber PP-ASEL gerber AT panix DOT com |
#10
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Rolling a Non Aerobat 150
In article . net,
"Todd W. Deckard" wrote: Why would you say this? The door would be fairly easy to open in a spin. In a high speed loss of control it might be very difficult to overcome aerodynamic resistance but it is possible to open a forward hinged door and force it open enough to squeeze out at even 100kts in straight flight. With a modern canopy you stand a chance of a survivable deployment at even a few hundred feet. I wouldn't be too positive about those statements. I have over 300 freefalls and 25 hours of acro in a Citabria. The Citabria only has one door... on the right side. In a right spin, the rate of descent is still going to be about 800 fpm with an indicated airspeed of 45-50 mph. That's quite and airload on the inside turn side of the airframe. Add to that centrifugal forces and getting through the doorway after jettisoning the door will be a challenging proposition. You have two sets of seatbelts to release, a headset to remove and a body with a parachute attached to fit through the doorway. When you exit you will be on the inside side of the airplane, which you have to clear before you pull the D-ring. Tic-toc, the clock is winding down as fast as the altimeter. I have knowledge of only one acro pilot who successfully exited a Decathlon. |
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