The Lexington ATC was NOT doing traffic count after he cleared Comair 5191 for takeoff

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...

You would rather argue than quote me accurately. I said,

"Separation" in the context of IFR separation
is not part of the local job when the Class D area is VFR.

What part of "in the context of IFR separation" do you not understand?



I didn't quote you at all. What I said about what you wrote is completely
accurate, however. You wrote:

"ATC provides separation when working IFR aircraft. The local controllers'
duties are different. They provide sequencing and safe use of runways and
takiways. 'Separation' in the context of IFR separation is not part of the
local job when the Class D area is VFR."

I don't know where you picked up your limited knowledge of ATC, but it is
completely wrong. Where did you get the idea that IFR separation
requirements in Class D airspace changed with the weather? What made you
think IFR separation was not part of the local controller's job? And what
is a takiway?


My point was that IFR separation is a limited part of the duties of
local control at an IFR tower and almost none (to none) of the duty of a
local controller at a VFR tower.

My knowledge of how ATC operates is limited, as I am not a controller.
I am a professional pilot and work with TERPs criteria. Those two areas
are your areas of limited knowledge.

Cooperation works better than contention, but I know you prefer the
latter, especially when you would even comment on "takiway." That is
petty, at best.

"chickenlittle92071" wrote in message
ups.com...

Christopher Damron, operating initials CD, the lone controller, was
working four positions. (1) Flight data/clearance delivery(FD/CD)
where he had to contact center and transmit clearances to aircraft on
one frequency, (2) Ground Control (GC) where he had to issue taxi
clearance and watch taxiing aircraft on ramp and taxiways on another
frequency, Local Control (LC) where he had to watch aircraft on the
runway and in the traffic pattern in the control zone out to five mile
radius on a third frequency, and Radar Departure Control (DC) where he
had to give heading to fly for arrivals and departures below 10,000
ft. on a fourth frequency. This is not too much to handle if things
fall in a staggered sequence, but when you get busy, someone has to
wait. You can't talk on four frequencies at once or talk to ten
aircraft at once. In the business, it's called going "Down the tubes".
During the day, all these positions are manned and in addition the
local control position can be split between two controllers. There is
a supervisor and cab coordinator (CC) also who monitor all positions
to insure safe operations. I have a photo I took a LGB where you can
see ten controllers in the tower cab.


Actually, it's quite easy to talk on four or more frequencies at once.



As you listen to the tape, you will see that CD doesn't have a lot of
time to catch his breath in the minutes before Comair is cleared for
takeoff. After that, he has nothing to do. He let his guard down.
These times show it to some degrees but his transmissions are
sometimes lengthy and there is little time between each transmission.


It doesn't appear he needed to catch his breath. Traffic was very light.



At 13:54, the controller, operating initials Charley Delta, calls
ARTCC. He doesn't key his microphone while dialing (old rotary pulse
phone) but has to key in to talk to center at 13:58. That is when you
hear CD breathing and the music in the background from the radio. He
unkeys his mike at 14:05 and the music can no longer be heard. We hear
it again at 14:09 when he keys in. ARTCC hasn't come up on the line so
the music can only be in the tower cab. At 14:08, ARTCC comes on the
line and CD requests a release on Skywest 6819. Center releases him
and CD gives his initials and hangs up at 14:12. The music stops at
that time.


If the music was in the tower cab it'd be heard on every recorded line. It
isn't heard when he's making a transmission, it's only heard when he's
dialed ZID TMU.



At 20:48 CD goes on the land line and dials center (ARTCC).
At 20:55 CD again keys his mike and we hear the music. While waiting
for center, Skywest 6819 can be heard on the speaker in the background
saying he is passing 10,000ft.and requesting a turn to 300 degrees to
avoid weather.


No, SKW6819 says "we need right of course for weather about a three hundred
heading". He says nothing about passing any altitude at that time, he'd
only been cleared to 10,000.



CD approves his request and immediately center comes on
the line and CD request a release on Comair. He had to be watching
Comair approaching the approach end of the short runway because he
call for the release in advance of him arriving at runway 22.


How do you draw that conclusion? He had an aircraft taxiing that needed a
flow release, why would he wait until the aircraft reached the runway to get
it?



He immediately calls another sector and requests the 300 heading for
Skywest 6819 to "get around some weather", but he had already approved
the turn for Skywest.


Yes, and after issuing it he had to coordinate it.



If Comair 191 is at the approach end of the wrong runway, he is
nowhere near runway 22.


Nowhere near? The distance between them looks to be less than 700 feet.



This is 16 seconds after he cleared Comair for takeoff and he hasn't
seen him rolling on the wrong runway. He was supposed to scan his
runway when he cleared him for takeoff and should have noticed him on
the wrong runway. He claimed he did see him on the wrong runway but
said nothing to him and didn't cancel his takeoff clearance.


You think Comair was on the wrong runway when he called ready for takeoff?

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...

Before folks here reject or support the message of the original poster you
should listen to the ATC tape recording while following along on the
official transcript, then draw your own conclusions as to the sole
controller's workload during the few minutes that count.


I did that. I concluded his workload was quite light.



And, consider the language in the 7110.65P (in effect on the date of the
accident). Does it mean what it says, or is it simply ATO CYA "puff." If
it means what it says, doesn't that become an impossible task for a IFR
tower/TRACON staffed with only one controller, and who is acting as local
controller, ground controller, radar controller, and data controller?

I don't have the answer; perhaps someone here does.

Pertinant references from 7110.65P

2-1-2. DUTY PRIORITY

a. Give first priority to separating aircraft and issuing safety alerts as
required in this order. Good judgment shall be used in prioritizing all
other provisions of this order based on the requirements of the situation
at hand.

3-1-4. COORDINATION BETWEEN LOCAL AND GROUND CONTROLLERS

Local and ground controllers shall exchange information as necessary for
the safe and efficient use of airport runways and movement areas. This may
be accomplished via verbal means, flight progress strips, other written
information, or automation displays. As a minimum, provide aircraft
identification and applicable runway/intersection/taxiway information as
follows:

a. Ground control shall notify local control when a departing aircraft has
been taxied to a runway other than one previously designated as active.

3-1-10. OBSERVED ABNORMALITIES

When requested by a pilot or when you deem it necessary, inform an
aircraft of any observed abnormal aircraft condition.

3-1-12. VISUALLY SCANNING RUNWAYS

a. Local controllers shall visually scan runways to the maximum extent
possible.

b. Ground control shall assist local control in visually scanning runways,
especially when runways are in close proximity to other movement areas.

And, finally, do safety alerts apply only to radar operations? If so, why
is it in Chapter 2 and not Chapter 4 or 5 of the 7110.65?

2-1-6. SAFETY ALERT

Issue a safety alert to an aircraft if you are aware the aircraft is in a
position/altitude which, in your judgment, places it in unsafe proximity
to terrain, obstructions, or other aircraft. Once the pilot informs you
action is being taken to resolve the situation, you may discontinue the
issuance of further alerts. Do not assume that because someone else has
responsibility for the aircraft that the unsafe situation has been
observed and the safety alert issued; inform the appropriate controller.

NOTE-
1. The issuance of a safety alert is a first priority (see para 2-1-2,
Duty Priority) once the controller observes and recognizes a situation of
unsafe aircraft proximity to terrain, obstacles, or other aircraft.
Conditions, such as workload, traffic volume, the quality/limitations of
the radar system, and the available lead time to react are factors in
determining whether it is reasonable for the controller to observe and
recognize such situations. While a controller cannot see immediately the
development of every situation where a safety alert must be issued, the
controller must remain vigilant for such situations and issue a safety
alert when the situation is recognized.

2. Recognition of situations of unsafe proximity may result from
MSAW/E-MSAW/LAAS, automatic altitude readouts, Conflict/Mode C Intruder
Alert, observations on a PAR scope, or pilot reports.

3. Once the alert is issued, it is solely the pilot's prerogative to
determine what course of action, if any, will be taken.

a. Terrain/Obstruction Alert. Immediately issue/ initiate an alert to an
aircraft if you are aware the aircraft is at an altitude which, in your
judgment, places it in unsafe proximity to terrain/obstructions. Issue the
alert as follows:

PHRASEOLOGY-
LOW ALTITUDE ALERT (call sign),
CHECK YOUR ALTITUDE IMMEDIATELY.
THE (as appropriate) MEA/MVA/MOCA/MIA IN YOUR
AREA IS (altitude),
or if an aircraft is past the final approach fix
(nonprecision approach),
or the outer marker,
or the fix used in lieu of the outer marker (precision approach),
and, if known, issue
THE (as appropriate) MDA/DH IS (altitude).


How is 3-1-4 pertinent in this case? Nothing in the transcript suggests the
controller failed to comply with anything you pasted above.

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...

There aren't any VFR towers these days? There aren't any aircraft not on
VFR flight plans these days?


There are. Were you trying to make a point?



Visual separation of IFR aircraft is no longer used?


It is. Were you trying to make a point?

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...

When I am cleared for a visual I am told to maintain my own separation. I
guess you are referring to the tower applying visual separation without
telling me?

I still fail to understand where a VFR tower does other than release
aircraft and accept them as the IFR controlling facility tells them.

I understand that local controller at an IFR tower does some limited
separation duties, again in accordance with the IFR controlling agency,
whether it be a TRACON downstairs or a center.

Those duties are quite limited compared to runway and ground movement
activities.


You're a pilot? You hold an instrument rating? Where did you get your
misconceptions about ATC? Many nonpilots have better knowledge of ATC than
you do.

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...

I don't want to whip this puppy to death, but if ACME TRACON tells PDQ VFR
tower to "release N1234C at 24 minutes past the hour, void after 27 past
the hour" what possible separation duties is the tower performing other
than to comply with the release time, which assures the separation the
TRACON is providing will, in fact, happen.


It may be providing runway separation between N1234C and VFR traffic.

You're still missing the point, you said local controllers did not provide
IFR separation. That just ain't so.

"Newps" wrote in message
...

They don't give a release like that to a tower. That's FSS stuff only.
The tower will be given the release with any restrictions such as altitude
and/or heading.


It's entirely possible for a VFR tower to receive a release like that. But
LEX is not a VFR tower so it's irrelevant to this discussion.

"A Lieberma" wrote in message
8...

FSS gives releases?????

I was always told FSS passes on FSS clearances and you get a ATC clearance
through FSS.


What's an FSS clearance?

FSSs relay ATC clearances to aircraft and they may very well include a
release window.

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...

That sounds like an IFR tower.


What's an IFR tower? What's a VFR tower? What type of tower is LEX?

"Sam Spade" wrote in message
...

Yeah, but you don't have a clue about the issue being discussed.


Careful. You've got a pot-kettle issue here.