Dangerous GPS jamming?

On Wednesday, February 27, 2013 5:28:34 PM UTC+1, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
I agree that GPS is a military system. Two military systems really. one Russian and the other American.

Well, no. The GPS system that we all use and love is the US military system. GLONASS is the soviet/russian copy. There is also a Chinese satnav system being installed, and Europe has been developing it's own system (so as to not rely on the US military) for a long time.

You can get receivers that use multiple systems, but don't think any are in use in gliders.

Agree that the US govt has committed itself to the peaceful, civilian use of GPS. But that doens't change the fact that it is a critical military system, and must be treated as such.

Kirk
66

Well Kirk, I appreciate that you have a military perspective and I understand that it was originally developed for the military. Never the less, it was not funded by the military as you say, it was funded by me and a some other guys like me and it is for all practical purposes now a US government everybody utility and we've all become quite dependent. So please don't jam it, damn it.

Or, if they really really need to jam it for a test, do it at 2 AM. Make the test short and localized -- not like described in the Notam that Matt pointed to.

In article ,
"kirk.stant" wrote:

On Friday, February 22, 2013 7:20:19 PM UTC+1, Matt Herron Jr. wrote: Anyone
else concerned or annoyed by this???

No. GPS is a military system. Working against jammers or in a GPS denied
environment is essential military training.

You want to fly when GPS is being jammed? Go somewhere else, or use a map.

Kirk
66
USAF Ret

Military ain't the only ones jamming GPS. Truckers have GPS jammers to
spoof their company GPS nannies. These are supposed to be extremely
short range, but there are reports of them interfering with aircraft
GPS. Hopefully, the military GPS jamming tests include working on ways
of making the GPS system more jam-proof.

Speaking of jamming: The cruise control on a car I had would always
disengage and refuse to work on a stretch of I-85 northbound, just on
the south side of the Atlanta airport. It would start working upon
reaching the north side of the airport.

else concerned or annoyed by this???


Military ain't the only ones jamming GPS. Truckers have GPS jammers to

spoof their company GPS nannies.

As the SSA's Airspace committee person, I have followed GPS jamming and spoofing as a potentially awkward development for US soaring over the past ten years. I repeatedly raised the issue of jamming and spoofing to the IGC GNSS committee, including sending them IGC files with 'holes' from documented announced jamming events, to make them believe that perhaps we would have difficulties with record flights in the western states of the US. (Please note they still downplay our realities.)

The discussions did allow for a slight modification of the Sporting Code to allow verification of 'achieving a turn point' (sector or beyond the line) to be verified if two fixes could be interpolated to show a passage beyond the point. There never was accommodation for gain of height situations, other than to say --' the approved recorders all have pressure transducers'. And subsequent to those talks, there has been separate discussion to accommodate Perlan's activity; which was what got me started in the first place, as I was hosting Fossett and Enevolden launches for altitude record flights.

I doubt there is as much GPS jamming in Argentina as there is in the western US. (Smile.)

I raised awareness of scheduled GPS jammer testing to a 1-26 Nationals, a couple Regionals, and locally have passed along NOTAM postings to a few SoCal/Region 12 high achievers. The contest organizers were pointed to the local military agencies, and the DofDef were very gracious about adjusting test schedules around event soaring. I doubt we would be so well served for weekday OLC flying or one-off record attempts. Now, it is almost de rigeur for the western contest organizers to address their GPS jammers during contest preparations. And, everyday pilots are becoming aware of increasing areas and durations of GPS test events. Hooray for NOTAM awareness!

Yes, GPS came into being on the Dept of Defense budget. It has permeated civilian use and the FAA leans on it heavily, decommissioning ground based radio-nav VORs due to GPS WAAS and other applications. There are documented cases of signal loss on IFR approaches due to ground based civilian (illegal) jamming. Locally, the Dept of Defense has been our best ally in accessing airspace that is protected from airline traffic.... with our Region 12 wave windows and wave XC procedures in Restricted airspace. So the DoD isn't all bad news.

As with all technology and piloting.... you better keep the skills sharp that relate to basic VFR flight. Navigation, airspace restrictions, traffic avoidance, awards flying all require pilots to plan ahead for many eventualities that occur 'in-flight'. Loss of a GPS signal shouldn't endanger a soaring flight.

This message brought to you by the gal who was known as the "Anti-Electron Queen", with a tremulous grasp on the trailing edge of technology.

Cindy Brickner, Region 12 Director

Cindy,

Nice to hear from you. keep the pressure on limiting the testing. Does the AOAP have any skin in this game? One would think so, and they may have more clout than our motley collection of glider guiders...

Matt

Le jeudi 28 février 2013 05:47:27 UTC+1, Steve Koerner a écrit*:
Well Kirk, I appreciate that you have a military perspective and I understand that it was originally developed for the military. Never the less, it was not funded by the military as you say, it was funded by me and a some other guys like me and it is for all practical purposes now a US government everybody utility and we've all become quite dependent. So please don't jam it, damn it.



Or, if they really really need to jam it for a test, do it at 2 AM. Make the test short and localized -- not like described in the Notam that Matt pointed to.

I seem to understand this is not a test about the effectivity of GPS jamming. Red Flag is a full blown military exercise, where aircraft (often also from other NATO forces) are flying in simulated war situations. GPS jamming seems to be a fairly obvious way of handicapping your opponents. It makes it necessary for them to revert to inertial navigation systems, to good old map reading, compass and chronometer, or switch to whatever successor to GPS may already exist (it would most likely remain highly classified). It is logical to simulate this aspect also - and the easiest way is of course to effectively jam the GPS signal. But it seems to me it would be just as efficient to disable GPS reception in the participating planes. I don't know if it's feasible though in complex weapon systems...

So it seems you're "just unlucky" to live in an area hosting this type of exercise. Perhaps it's not such a bad idea to have a backup camera, after all, for contests in that area. Even if IGC doesn't recognize this method anymore, I think it could very well be specified in the local rules. You would only need to activate the system in case of scheduled jamming, of course. Not being IGC regulated, you could even use a digital camera or your phone (the pictures are timestamped)...

Well, at least they don't prohibit you flying, as they sometimes do in large areas of some European countries during Nato (or even national) exercises.. "Temporary Prohibited / Restricted Areas" are really frequent in France, for example, the numerous permanent ones notwithstanding.

I like that the AF pilots are training with GPS jamming, it kinda makes it hard to drop a JDAM without it. They might have to do some of that "pilot sh*t".

I sometimes wonder if some people have a grip on reality. The GPS system as
we know it is a military system, designed to help our forces in times of
conflict. We use it for free and over the years the civilian use has
improved, we no longer have position errors created by the system.
Given it's primary pupose do we really want the pilots who fight using the
system to experience jamming for the first time in real combat? Might it
not be a good idea to train for the eventuality in a realistic fashion? A
small inconvieniece to contests and soaring claims is a small price to pay
to save lives of military pilots and civilians who might collect an
explosive delivery if the first time they see a jammed GPS is in combat.
Stop whining about it, deal with it in an adult fashion for pitys sake.

On 2/28/2013 6:00 PM, Don Johnstone wrote:
I sometimes wonder if some people have a grip on reality. The GPS system as
we know it is a military system, designed to help our forces in times of
conflict. We use it for free and over the years the civilian use has
improved, we no longer have position errors created by the system.
Given it's primary pupose do we really want the pilots who fight using the
system to experience jamming for the first time in real combat? Might it
not be a good idea to train for the eventuality in a realistic fashion? A
small inconvieniece to contests and soaring claims is a small price to pay
to save lives of military pilots and civilians who might collect an
explosive delivery if the first time they see a jammed GPS is in combat.
Stop whining about it, deal with it in an adult fashion for pitys sake.


Couldn't the military pilot accomplish the same thing just by turning
off the GPS on his plane?

No.
He needs to be able to recognize when the system is being jammed and how to work around it.
The fail safe for the pilot navigation system is that the GPS feed into the INS exceeds the kalman filter limits and is disregarded. However, there are weapons that rely on GPS for terminal guidance. the pilot has to learn and adapt by making realtime in the air decisions and act.

I agree that as the FAA moves toward relying more and more on ADS-B, which requires WAAS data quality, the GPS recievers have to be more secure to reject any jamming inputs. Jamming can introduce false data into the GPS navigator, or totally block the signal.

BT