Chandelle, speaking of tight turns

I had thought a chandelle was really half a loop followed by a half
roll to get right side up, but most describe it as a climbing turn
(almost like a wing over?).

It was a long time ago, but I seem to remember being in an Aerobat and
started a loop by diving and getting to maybe 140 kts before the pilot
pulled back. The question nagging at me is, if in something like an
Arrrow or a Mooney, if you were in a cruise at 140 knots would you
have enough speed to pull back into a half loop to make a fast 180
degree change in turn in a tight space?

I suppose I could calculate if one maintained 2 gs worth of
backpressure what would happen (it would be a funny half loop, turn
radius would get tighter and tighter as speed decreases and gravity
started pulling at the tail instead of at the wheels, but real life
experience is better than calculations, if anyone has such experience.

wrote in message
ups.com...

I had thought a chandelle was really half a loop followed by a half
roll to get right side up, but most describe it as a climbing turn
(almost like a wing over?).


You're describing an Immelmann.

Thanks!

On Jun 29, 3:19 pm, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:
wrote in message

ups.com...



I had thought a chandelle was really half a loop followed by a half
roll to get right side up, but most describe it as a climbing turn
(almost like a wing over?).

You're describing an Immelmann.

What you describe is an Immeleman. Front half loop followed by half roll to
upright. The opposite (half roll to inverted, followed by back half of
loop) is a split S.

Chandelle (a commercial maneuver, in the CPL PTS) is a climbing 180 deg
turn. First 90 deg of turn, establish 30 deg AOB, and begin pitching,
Second 90 deg of turn is slowly rolling wings level and increasing pitch
such that the a/c goes into stall warning. Recovery is accelerate straight
ahead (180 from initial heading) without losing altitude gained in the
maneuver.

Watson
wrote in message
ups.com...
I had thought a chandelle was really half a loop followed by a half
roll to get right side up, but most describe it as a climbing turn
(almost like a wing over?).

It was a long time ago, but I seem to remember being in an Aerobat and
started a loop by diving and getting to maybe 140 kts before the pilot
pulled back. The question nagging at me is, if in something like an
Arrrow or a Mooney, if you were in a cruise at 140 knots would you
have enough speed to pull back into a half loop to make a fast 180
degree change in turn in a tight space?

I suppose I could calculate if one maintained 2 gs worth of
backpressure what would happen (it would be a funny half loop, turn
radius would get tighter and tighter as speed decreases and gravity
started pulling at the tail instead of at the wheels, but real life
experience is better than calculations, if anyone has such experience.

I thought of it as a maximum performance climbing turn.



wrote:
I had thought a chandelle was really half a loop followed by a half
roll to get right side up, but most describe it as a climbing turn
(almost like a wing over?).

It was a long time ago, but I seem to remember being in an Aerobat and
started a loop by diving and getting to maybe 140 kts before the pilot
pulled back. The question nagging at me is, if in something like an
Arrrow or a Mooney, if you were in a cruise at 140 knots would you
have enough speed to pull back into a half loop to make a fast 180
degree change in turn in a tight space?

I suppose I could calculate if one maintained 2 gs worth of
backpressure what would happen (it would be a funny half loop, turn
radius would get tighter and tighter as speed decreases and gravity
started pulling at the tail instead of at the wheels, but real life
experience is better than calculations, if anyone has such experience.

The Visitor wrote:
I thought of it as a maximum performance climbing turn.


And it is.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

wrote in message
ups.com...
I had thought a chandelle was really half a loop followed by a half
roll to get right side up, but most describe it as a climbing turn
(almost like a wing over?).

It was a long time ago, but I seem to remember being in an Aerobat and
started a loop by diving and getting to maybe 140 kts before the pilot
pulled back. The question nagging at me is, if in something like an
Arrrow or a Mooney, if you were in a cruise at 140 knots would you
have enough speed to pull back into a half loop to make a fast 180
degree change in turn in a tight space?

snip

I don't fly a Mooney or Arrow, but the answer is probably yes, assuming
we're talking about indicated airspeed, as opposed to true airspeed. I fly
loops beginning at 140-150 knots IAS in my RV-6 (fixed pitch) fairly often.
They require a 3.5 G initial pull, tapering off as the airspeed declines.
With full power the loop results in an 800' altitude gain at the apex with
about 80 knots of airspeed over the top of the loop.

The Mooney or Arrow's constant speed props would have advantages over my
RV's fixed pitch setup, although the RV has a higher power to weight ratio.
Those two factors probably net out as a wash...

By the way, this is a purely hypothetical answer. Don't try to prove or
disprove it with the real hardware.

KB

wrote in message
ups.com...

It was a long time ago, but I seem to remember being in an Aerobat and
started a loop by diving and getting to maybe 140 kts before the pilot
pulled back. The question nagging at me is, if in something like an
Arrrow or a Mooney, if you were in a cruise at 140 knots would you
have enough speed to pull back into a half loop to make a fast 180
degree change in turn in a tight space?

I suppose I could calculate if one maintained 2 gs worth of
backpressure what would happen (it would be a funny half loop, turn
radius would get tighter and tighter as speed decreases and gravity
started pulling at the tail instead of at the wheels, but real life
experience is better than calculations, if anyone has such experience.


Assuming 140 knots and full power, I think most 4 place singles could
complete an eliptical loop. Your right, maintaining back pressure and
tighting the radius around the top would be necessary, but it could save
your butt in a box canyon or downtown NY.

I have actually done it in a 150, 172 and 182, no problem. But don't try it
without a real emergency or the proper training and equipment. It can also
kill some gyros.

when you did it, did you wait until manovering speed before pulling
all the way back? I'd worry, in the Mooney, if the pilot in command
(he loves being called that) pulled back to the stops at cruise. If
you kept your wits about you, I'd guess firm back until I think 130
knots, then to the aft limit in that airplane, would probably only
break a gyro or two, and not the backbone of the airplane. I don't
know if its gyros are rated for more than 60 degrees back or pitch.

I think the numbers would work out that we'd be well above stall at
the top still pulling positive gees, then a roll to upright, with
altitude in the bank. Be fun to try it in a simulator, but my personal
PIC would not do it in the airplane unless there was building in front
of him.

wrote in message
oups.com...
when you did it, did you wait until manovering speed before pulling
all the way back? I'd worry, in the Mooney, if the pilot in command
(he loves being called that) pulled back to the stops at cruise. If
you kept your wits about you, I'd guess firm back until I think 130
knots, then to the aft limit in that airplane, would probably only
break a gyro or two, and not the backbone of the airplane. I don't
know if its gyros are rated for more than 60 degrees back or pitch.

First things first, don't over stress the aircraft under any circumstances,
it shouldn't be necessary. You shouldn't need more than 2.5 Gs max, if that
much. But keep the Gs on. As the aircraft slows, maintaining those Gs
assures you the tightest possible loop radius, and is the quickest way over
the top. In this case, unlike demonstration aerobatics, you want an
elliptical loop. You shouldn't hit the stops until you get very near the
top, and very slow, if even then. Nine times out of ten these days, you
won't hurt the gyros, but there is no guarantee unless they are designed for
such duty or can be caged.


I think the numbers would work out that we'd be well above stall at
the top still pulling positive gees, then a roll to upright, with
altitude in the bank. Be fun to try it in a simulator, but my personal
PIC would not do it in the airplane unless there was building in front
of him.


I'd recommend some fundamental aerobatic training to ALL pilots. Just make
sure you have the proper equipment, and a good instructor. Nothing can
prepare you more for the unexpected, and make you feel more at easy during
your routine piloting. And an Immelmann as you describe, is a good move to
practice often.