If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#341
|
|||
|
|||
"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:51:20 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
wrote: On Mar 23, 11:21*am, Chris wrote: On Mar 23, 12:55*am, -did-not-set--mail-host-address-- so-tickle-me wrote: I'm not sure, maybe you know: I assumed the Japanese were good until they lost their best attack and dive bomber pilots; and this problem was It's hard to say precisely: but looking at losses, the Japanese lost somewhere between 100 and 150 carrier qual'd aircrew at each of the first couple of carrier battles. The Guadalcanal campaign as a whole cost the Japanese Navy over 2800 planes, though, so you can see that it would be where the majority of the pre-war elite died. Defending fighters breaking up attacks would be the norm anywhere I suppose, regardless of how well-trained the attacking pilots are. What is impressive about the Japanese early war aircrew is that defending fighters often didn't break up the attacks, even when they were in a position to intercept. Examine the Hiryu's airgroup pair of attacks on Yorktown at Midway and notice that despite intense losses, on both occasions the crews got in and hit their targets and did their damage. Chris Manteuffel The relevance is if known Japanese experience predicts how well the Germans might have done against the RN. To what extent had the skilled attack pilots been lost during the BoB? nothing from nothing leaves nothing Peter Skelton |
#342
|
|||
|
|||
"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 23, 2:51*pm, Jim Wilkins wrote:
The relevance is if known Japanese experience predicts how well the Germans might have done against the RN. To what extent had the skilled attack pilots been lost during the BoB? Germany never had pilots as skilled at hitting ships as the Japanese did at the beginning of the war. If you want to know how the Germans might have done against the RN during Sealion, look at their fairly poor experience at Crete (as an example, or the convoy battles around Malta as another) about a year later, with pilots who had some training in attacking ships (Fliegerkorps X was not ready to attack ships until January 1941 or thereabouts). My entire point has been that any comparison between the Japanese and the Germans is a waste of time, because the Japanese were so much better. If you want to understand how effective the Germans would have been, you have to look at their complete inability to stop the RN in the Med. Basing any conclusions about the Germans on the Japanese is a false equivalence. Chris Manteuffel |
#343
|
|||
|
|||
"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:51:20 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins
wrote: On Mar 23, 11:21*am, Chris wrote: On Mar 23, 12:55*am, -did-not-set--mail-host-address-- so-tickle-me wrote: I'm not sure, maybe you know: I assumed the Japanese were good until they lost their best attack and dive bomber pilots; and this problem was It's hard to say precisely: but looking at losses, the Japanese lost somewhere between 100 and 150 carrier qual'd aircrew at each of the first couple of carrier battles. The Guadalcanal campaign as a whole cost the Japanese Navy over 2800 planes, though, so you can see that it would be where the majority of the pre-war elite died. Defending fighters breaking up attacks would be the norm anywhere I suppose, regardless of how well-trained the attacking pilots are. What is impressive about the Japanese early war aircrew is that defending fighters often didn't break up the attacks, even when they were in a position to intercept. Examine the Hiryu's airgroup pair of attacks on Yorktown at Midway and notice that despite intense losses, on both occasions the crews got in and hit their targets and did their damage. Chris Manteuffel The relevance is if known Japanese experience predicts how well the Germans might have done against the RN. To what extent had the skilled attack pilots been lost during the BoB? IIRC the RAF and the Luftwaffe both had extensive air-sea rescue programs. If I further remember correctly the IJN had none. So a Brit or Jerry knocked down had a chance of rescue and return to duty. An Jap who got shot down just learned it was his time to die for the Emperor. This was a serious waste of manpower by the IJN, but was completely consistent with with their "warrior ethic." While that might (note the conditional) have made sense in 1742 by 1942 it was the height of foolishness. Further, again from memory, the Germans had a much more robust replacement pilot program than did the Japanese. jsw |
#344
|
|||
|
|||
"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
On Mar 23, 3:58*pm, Bill Kambic wrote:
On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:51:20 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins wrote: On Mar 23, 11:21 am, Chris wrote: On Mar 23, 12:55 am, -did-not-set--mail-host-address-- so-tickle-me wrote: I'm not sure, maybe you know: I assumed the Japanese were good until they lost their best attack and dive bomber pilots; and this problem was It's hard to say precisely: but looking at losses, the Japanese lost somewhere between 100 and 150 carrier qual'd aircrew at each of the first couple of carrier battles. The Guadalcanal campaign as a whole cost the Japanese Navy over 2800 planes, though, so you can see that it would be where the majority of the pre-war elite died. Defending fighters breaking up attacks would be the norm anywhere I suppose, regardless of how well-trained the attacking pilots are. What is impressive about the Japanese early war aircrew is that defending fighters often didn't break up the attacks, even when they were in a position to intercept. Examine the Hiryu's airgroup pair of attacks on Yorktown at Midway and notice that despite intense losses, on both occasions the crews got in and hit their targets and did their damage. Chris Manteuffel The relevance is if known Japanese experience predicts how well the Germans might have done against the RN. To what extent had the skilled attack pilots been lost during the BoB? IIRC the RAF and the Luftwaffe both had extensive air-sea rescue programs. *If I further remember correctly the IJN had none. *So a Brit or Jerry knocked down had a chance of rescue and return to duty. An Jap who got shot down just learned it was his time to die for the Emperor. This was a serious waste of manpower by the IJN, but was completely consistent with with their "warrior ethic." *While that might (note the conditional) have made sense in 1742 by 1942 it was the height of foolishness. Further, again from memory, the Germans had a much more robust replacement pilot program than did the Japanese. jsw The German air sea rescue operations were sea-planes escorted in one instance by 12 Bf 109s, the German pilots got flotation devices and all the requisite gear if they had to land in the sea. The RAF had none of those. But they did have rescue boats instead of big white sea planes covered with 8 red crosses. |
#345
|
|||
|
|||
"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
"Bill Kambic" wrote in message ... On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:51:20 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins The relevance is if known Japanese experience predicts how well the Germans might have done against the RN. To what extent had the skilled attack pilots been lost during the BoB? IIRC the RAF and the Luftwaffe both had extensive air-sea rescue programs. If I further remember correctly the IJN had none. So a Brit or Jerry knocked down had a chance of rescue and return to duty. An Jap who got shot down just learned it was his time to die for the Emperor. This was a serious waste of manpower by the IJN, but was completely consistent with with their "warrior ethic." While that might (note the conditional) have made sense in 1742 by 1942 it was the height of foolishness. I'd argue that it made no sense in 1742 either. We know the Japanese were not so inflexible during WW1 or the Russo Japanese war. British troops who fought alongside the Japanese at Tsingtao were very complimentary and the German POW's taken were treated exceptionally well. Japanese guards who were disrespectful towards their German 'guests' were punished. The militarists invoked a perverted version of the code of Bushido in the interwar period to justify their brutality in precisely the same way the Nazis tried to portray themselves as mediaeval Knights. The Japanese army in particular deliberately adopted a policy of brutality within its own ranks. Japanese officers were encouraged to beat juniors who's actions displeased them and Japanese soldiers were taught that they could do the same to their 'inferiors' This had no justification in the ancient warrior codes of the Samurai, it was instead a cynical method of ensuring their own control. Further, again from memory, the Germans had a much more robust replacement pilot program than did the Japanese. Indeed but ultimately not as robust as that of the allies. By 1940 Britain and its Commonwealth alone were training more pilots than Germany. Keith |
#346
|
|||
|
|||
"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
"Jack Linthicum" wrote in message ... On Mar 23, 3:58 pm, Bill Kambic wrote: On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:51:20 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins Further, again from memory, the Germans had a much more robust replacement pilot program than did the Japanese. jsw The German air sea rescue operations were sea-planes escorted in one instance by 12 Bf 109s, the German pilots got flotation devices and all the requisite gear if they had to land in the sea. The RAF had none of those. But they did have rescue boats instead of big white sea planes covered with 8 red crosses. Later in the war the RAF had ASR flying boats as well in the shape of the Supermarine Walrus. It is estimated that the Walrus saved around 5,000 pilots shot down around Britain and 2,500 in the Mediterranean. Keith |
#347
|
|||
|
|||
"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
In article ,
Chris wrote: On Mar 23, 2:51*pm, Jim Wilkins wrote: The relevance is if known Japanese experience predicts how well the Germans might have done against the RN. To what extent had the skilled attack pilots been lost during the BoB? Germany never had pilots as skilled at hitting ships as the Japanese did at the beginning of the war. If you want to know how the Germans might have done against the RN during Sealion, look at their fairly poor experience at Crete (as an example, or the convoy battles around Malta as another) about a year later, with pilots who had some training in attacking ships (Fliegerkorps X was not ready to attack ships until January 1941 or thereabouts). Or, even more to the point, at their capabilities during the Norway campaign, which were pretty lamentable. It was only after Norway that the Luftwaffe woke up to the need for anti-shipping specialist units, but these units weren't ready in the summer of '40 and played no part in the BoB. They debuted in the Med. at the start of '41, where they proved much more formidable than anything the Italians or, still more, the Germans had fielded against ships before - but still came nowhere even close to the capability of the Japanese naval air arm. -- Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth "Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes) |
#348
|
|||
|
|||
"Vanishing American Air Superiority"
In article ,
Jack Linthicum wrote: On Mar 23, 3:58*pm, Bill Kambic wrote: On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:51:20 -0700 (PDT), Jim Wilkins wrote: On Mar 23, 11:21 am, Chris wrote: On Mar 23, 12:55 am, -did-not-set--mail-host-address-- so-tickle-me wrote: I'm not sure, maybe you know: I assumed the Japanese were good until they lost their best attack and dive bomber pilots; and this problem was What is impressive about the Japanese early war aircrew is that defending fighters often didn't break up the attacks, even when they were in a position to intercept. Examine the Hiryu's airgroup pair of attacks on Yorktown at Midway and notice that despite intense losses, on both occasions the crews got in and hit their targets and did their damage. The relevance is if known Japanese experience predicts how well the Germans might have done against the RN. To what extent had the skilled attack pilots been lost during the BoB? IIRC the RAF and the Luftwaffe both had extensive air-sea rescue programs. *If I further remember correctly the IJN had none. *So a Brit or Jerry knocked down had a chance of rescue and return to duty. An Jap who got shot down just learned it was his time to die for the Emperor. The German air sea rescue operations were sea-planes escorted in one instance by 12 Bf 109s, the German pilots got flotation devices and all the requisite gear if they had to land in the sea. The RAF had none of those. But they did have rescue boats instead of big white sea planes covered with 8 red crosses. And, more pertinently, the RN also operated an exensive force of ASW craft (adapted Fairmile MLs in the main), which were heavily armed. Most pertinently of all, RAF air spottin g of survivors and RN/RAF launch rescue were well-co-ordinated: this greatly increased the chances of survivors getting picked up whilst still alive (the channel being a cold place). -- Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth "Who dies with the most toys wins" (Gary Barnes) |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
American Women Raped in Iraq by "Lawless" Bushite Grunters - 1.The ISI's General, Mahmoud Ahmad funded 911's Atta - 2. We have video of ironflowing like water from the towers - American Women Raped in Iraq by"Lawless" Bushite | frank | Naval Aviation | 1 | August 30th 08 12:35 PM |
American Women Raped in Iraq by "Lawless" Bushite Grunters - 1. The ISI's General, Mahmoud Ahmad funded 911's Atta - 2. We have video of iron flowing like water from the towers - American Women Raped in Iraq by "Lawless" Bushi | Charlie Wolf[_2_] | Naval Aviation | 0 | August 29th 08 03:19 AM |
Corporate News Whores are Evil to All Humans Being - PentagonWon't Probe KBR [GANG] Rape Charges - "Heaven Won't Take [bushite] Marines" -American corporations actively attempt to MURDER American women, and American"Men" refus | WiseGuy | Naval Aviation | 0 | January 9th 08 02:50 PM |