FAI Sporting Code Section 3 experts wanted

It's starting to get a little gray now, to summarize...

If u declare a Start Point...one can either use release
or Start Point for initial altitude for penalty caluculation.

And then you can compare this against altitude at Finish
Point observation sector?




At 12:54 30 August 2004, Dale Kramer wrote:
Marc,

I can verify that this interpretation is correct.

In 1999, I used this interpretation and received my
1000km.

It was not easy to obtain with this interpretation
and it took many
months of perseverance.

I believe I was the first to do this and I don't think
they were happy
about my insistence on this literal interpretation
of the rule.

It would be interesting to know if anyone else has
successfully used
it.

I took off at Ridge Soaring with Altoona declared as
a start and
finish. Three turnpoints were declared between and
then landed at
Ridge Soaring. I got in wave on my way to Altoona
and decided to fly
down to Cumberland for fun before I started. I was
in wave when I
started at Altoona. I was able to use my tow release
as my start
altitude and my finish altitude at Altoona for the
1000m calculation.

Dale Kramer
K1





Marc Ramsey wrote in message news:...
Denis wrote:
Stewart Kissel wrote:

Ok, this helps clear up an issue that has been bugging
me. I would be interested in anyone who could verify/comment
on whether a tow release could be used for a start...If
a Start Point had been declared.


No, it cannot (except reverting to a *free record*
performance)

SC3 1.4.5.b says that distance using up to three turnpoints
is 'A flight
from a START POINT via up to three TURN POINTS to
a FINISH POINT.' Note
that is says 'a START POINT', not 'the START POINT'.
SC3 1.1.8 says a
START POINT is either '(a) The RELEASE POINT, or (b)
A WAY POINT
declared as a START POINT, or (c) The midpoint of
a START LINE.' Note
that the pilot or data analyst can apparently choose
between (b) and (c)
after the flight, as I've never seen a declaration
form (paper or
electronic) that requires that you declare before
the flight that you
are using a start line as opposed to a start way point
(with OZ). Being
a computer programmer, I'd argue that the 'or' in
clause (a) has the
same logical precedence as the 'or' in clause (b).
Therefore, if you
have declared a start, it still seems to me that it
would be valid to
use any of the START POINT options, including the
RELEASE POINT. Have
you found a rule someplace else that would render
this interpretation
incorrect?

Marc

"Stewart Kissel" wrote...
It's starting to get a little gray now, to summarize...

The rules are ambiguous, which is not at all surprising given their history.

If u declare a Start Point...one can either use release
or Start Point for initial altitude for penalty caluculation.

It's more complicated than that. According to SC3 Annex C.3.5, "the start
height and time may be selected after the flight from the *most favourable
fix* within the OZ before crossing the start line or OZ boundary." This is
in addition to SC3 1.4.7 which states that "A distance flight starting as
defined in 1.1.8b (a declared START POINT) may be claimed where the LOSS OF
HEIGHT is measured from the release height to the elevation of the finish
point."

And then you can compare this against altitude at Finish
Point observation sector?

Perhaps, but does "elevation of the finish point" above mean the actual
ground level elevation, or the altitude of the finish point? SC3 is in
serious need of a rewrite...

Marc

Dale Kramer wrote:

I took off at Ridge Soaring with Altoona declared as a start and
finish. Three turnpoints were declared between and then landed at
Ridge Soaring. I got in wave on my way to Altoona and decided to fly
down to Cumberland for fun before I started. I was in wave when I
started at Altoona. I was able to use my tow release as my start
altitude and my finish altitude at Altoona for the 1000m calculation.

If I understand, you did use your pre-declared start point (Altoona) as
start position - meaning that you actually passed through its
observation zone, and it was used for distance calculation ?

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

Marc Ramsey wrote:

SC3 1.4.5.b says that distance using up to three turnpoints is "A flight
from a START POINT via up to three TURN POINTS to a FINISH POINT." Note
that is says "a START POINT", not "the START POINT". SC3 1.1.8 says a
START POINT is either "(a) The RELEASE POINT, or (b) A WAY POINT
declared as a START POINT, or (c) The midpoint of a START LINE." Note
that the pilot or data analyst can apparently choose between (b) and (c)
after the flight, as I've never seen a declaration form (paper or
electronic) that requires that you declare before the flight that you
are using a start line as opposed to a start way point (with OZ). Being
a computer programmer, I'd argue that the "or" in clause (a) has the
same logical precedence as the "or" in clause (b). Therefore, if you
have declared a start, it still seems to me that it would be valid to
use any of the START POINT options, including the RELEASE POINT. Have
you found a rule someplace else that would render this interpretation
incorrect?

this one ?

SC3 1.4.1.d. WAY POINTS must be declared and used in the sequence declared except where
specifically not required in the rules.

SC3c, which says how to interpret SC3, says in 1.1 :

If you think a passage of text is capable
of being interpreted in more than one way, the most straightforward
interpretation is the
correct one, not the obscure one that a lawyer may find.

but in 1.2 it says (which may be the contrary) :

OOs and national claims
officers are encouraged to take the position that, while ensuring the
rules are met, their job is
to make awards, not turn them down for minor bureaucratic reasons or
oversights that do not
affect the proof of a soaring performance.

SC3c 3.1 says:

The Code gives four methods of starting and finishing to choose from.
Any start method can
be used with any finish method:
The start (SC3-1.1.7) The finish (SC3-1.1.11)
1 release landing
2 leaving a start point OZ entering a finish point OZ
3 crossing a start line crossing a finish line
4 shutting down a MoP starting a MoP
The first and fourth alternatives can be considered equivalent, and
do not normally need to be pre-declared. The exceptions are a goal
flight when the finish point is declared, or a closed course flight in
which the nomination of “point of release” as the start point and finish
point
will meet the declaration requirement. The second and third methods
of starting always require pre-declaration of the start point (except
for free distance flights).

Although it is not straightforward, I would say that you may declare
"release point" as the start point (as of SC3 1.1.8 option a), but if
you already declared a precise Start point, you may not change it
inflight to the release point.

In the case of a closed course, the release point may not be used since
the start point and the finish point are to be identical and finish
point may not be defined as the release point !

Start line option is another quirk in the SC3. I would say that it only
applies when declared, but I see no mean to declare this in a logger !
Except in an official competition, the start line is undefined - SC3
says "*approximately* perpendicular to the first leg" which in the case
of observation from the ground may have sense, but not when GPS is used.
Same for finish line...

Perhaps we'd need an annex D to the sporting code, saying how to
interpret the annex C ;-) ?


--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

Marc Ramsey wrote:

SC3 is in
serious need of a rewrite...

It has been rewrited 5 years ago. But this has been done without
changing any piece of rule (which was not in the power of the rewriter),
thus it remains as complicated and often unlogical that is was before
rewriting.

The need is to reintroduce a bit of logic and common sense in the rules,
then the rewriting should be easier (as would be the interpretation !)

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

Denis wrote:
In the case of a closed course, the release point may not be used since
the start point and the finish point are to be identical and finish
point may not be defined as the release point !

How about SC3 Annex C 3.1 which says 'or a closed course flight in which
the nomination of "point of release" as the start point and finish point
will meet the declaration requirement.'?

Marc

Marc Ramsey wrote:

Denis wrote:

In the case of a closed course, the release point may not be used
since the start point and the finish point are to be identical and
finish point may not be defined as the release point !


How about SC3 Annex C 3.1 which says 'or a closed course flight in which
the nomination of "point of release" as the start point and finish point
will meet the declaration requirement.'?

You're right if there is no declared start point (other than point of
release). If you have declared a start point, you must nominate the same
point as finish point (so that it be a closed course).

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

If I understand, you did use your pre-declared start point (Altoona) as
start position - meaning that you actually passed through its
observation zone, and it was used for distance calculation ?

Yes I did Denis.

Dale Kramer wrote:

If I understand, you did use your pre-declared start point (Altoona) as
start position - meaning that you actually passed through its
observation zone, and it was used for distance calculation ?


Yes I did Denis.

OK Thus no problem in your case. But the case that Mark presented is
more subject to interpretation...

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?