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Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality



 
 
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  #11  
Old April 24th 20, 10:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
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Posts: 699
Default Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality

On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 13:07:12 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:

The DG1000 spins very very very well for me.

Wow. What a great glider. I don't know how the performance compares,
but I like the ergonomics of the DG1000 much better than the Duo Discus
(which I'd flown in February). I especially prefer the trim mechanism
on the DG. The club where I flew the DG1000 uses it for ab initio
trainer and first solos. Glider has survived a number of hard landings
on a rough grass field. US Air Force Academy flies DG1000s, don't they?

I've only flown a DG 1000 once, but that was a three hour flight from
Omarama over to Lake Hawea, then most of the way to My Huxton and back to
home ridge running - a weak day, not much wave to speak of but an
excellent day for an intro to mountain flying. But I digress: I agree
that its a very nice glider and very responsive once I'd got used to its
size and weight. Better brakes than a Duo too. I liked it a lot: the only
thing I wasn't keen on was getting into and out of it - not quite as bad
as an ASH-25, but close. However, entry and egress from the 1001 looks to
be a lot easier with its having a nose-wheel and being much closer to the
floor.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #12  
Old April 24th 20, 10:17 PM
Ventus_a Ventus_a is offline
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First recorded activity by AviationBanter: May 2010
Posts: 202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Gregorie[_6_] View Post
On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 17:35:55 +0100, Nick Hill wrote:

On 24/04/2020 13:03, Martin Gregorie wrote:


ASK-21s do spin: don't let anybody tell you they won't.

I did my pre-solo spin training on one, *without* the tail weight,
though admittedly neither the instructor or myself were heavy people
and it needed a fair amount of persuasion to spin. You need a minimum
energy entry: set it up fully stalled in a straight line with the stick
on the back stop, full rudder until its rolled 45 degrees and then put
the stick in the opposite rear corner, and it rolls wings vertical as
it starts to spin. Recovery is normal.


whilst this may be true and allow practising spin recovery the risk is
that this gives an impression for a trainee that a situation where a
glider will spin is not one likely to be encountered in normal flight.


Yes, agreed, but you can say the same about the G103 Twin Acro II, which
is at least as difficult to spin. We used to have one (replaced by a
Perkoz) that I once did annual spin checks in with, AFAIK, the only
instructor we had who knwe how to spin it - and even he could only spin
it left. Thats because the G.103 is chronically under-ruddered and the
rudder hinge attaches it to the left fin skin. Consequently it has
slightly more left than right rudder.

So, on the whole I prefer trainers to be more unforgiving than the ASK-21
or the G-103. Personally, I like the Puchacz a lot - its much more
pleasant to fly solo than either an ASK-21 or a G103.

But, all I really was saying that thinking an ASK-21 won't spin is an
attitude that may catch you out one day. Its manual also says it won't
spin inverted but there are or were test pilots at Edwards who showed
that to be wrong.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
The spinning flight test report Martin refers to can be found here. The testing was carried out by the Airforce Flight Test Center at Edwards Airforce Base

https://ia800105.us.archive.org/14/i..._ADA213513.pdf

It makes for an interesting if lengthy read.

Cheers
Colin

Last edited by Ventus_a : April 27th 20 at 02:00 AM.
  #13  
Old April 25th 20, 05:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,099
Default Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 6:03:22 AM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:26:16 -0700, krasw wrote:

ASK 21 is a bear to fly and hugely overrated. It's only pros are it's
ability to not spin and perfectly balanced main wheel location for great
ground handling. Why not buy a glider that is actually fun to fly and
performs for the same money?


ASK-21s do spin: don't let anybody tell you they won't.

I did my pre-solo spin training on one, *without* the tail weight, though
admittedly neither the instructor or myself were heavy people and it
needed a fair amount of persuasion to spin. You need a minimum energy
entry: set it up fully stalled in a straight line with the stick on the
back stop, full rudder until its rolled 45 degrees and then put the stick
in the opposite rear corner, and it rolls wings vertical as it starts to
spin. Recovery is normal.

I still don't fully understand why we used the ASK-21 for my spin
training, though: the club had, and still has, a Puchacz and I was very
familiar with both the ASK-21 and the Puchacz at the time.

Spinning a K-21 at Boulder, CO:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5iaLGmkuN0


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org


I know that instructor. From the comments early on tow, it sounds like the weights were installed. Hadn't seen that video, so thanks for the link.

Frank Whiteley
  #14  
Old April 25th 20, 05:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,124
Default Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 1:26:19 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
ASK 21 is a bear to fly and hugely overrated. It's only pros are it's ability to not spin and perfectly balanced main wheel location for great ground handling. Why not buy a glider that is actually fun to fly and performs for the same money?


My folks did not get the message that they are not having fun in the '21.
We fly it XC and in contests.
Schleicher has built over 900 and still has a good backlog. It is very hard to find one used in the US because nobody wants to give them up.
I don't agree that it is a bear to fly. Most people pick it up pretty quickly.
UH/K21
  #15  
Old April 25th 20, 06:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 699
Default Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality

On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:15:03 -0700, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 6:03:22 AM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:26:16 -0700, krasw wrote:

ASK 21 is a bear to fly and hugely overrated. It's only pros are it's
ability to not spin and perfectly balanced main wheel location for
great ground handling. Why not buy a glider that is actually fun to
fly and performs for the same money?


ASK-21s do spin: don't let anybody tell you they won't.

I did my pre-solo spin training on one, *without* the tail weight,
though admittedly neither the instructor or myself were heavy people
and it needed a fair amount of persuasion to spin. You need a minimum
energy entry: set it up fully stalled in a straight line with the stick
on the back stop, full rudder until its rolled 45 degrees and then put
the stick in the opposite rear corner, and it rolls wings vertical as
it starts to spin. Recovery is normal.

I still don't fully understand why we used the ASK-21 for my spin
training, though: the club had, and still has, a Puchacz and I was very
familiar with both the ASK-21 and the Puchacz at the time.

Spinning a K-21 at Boulder, CO:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5iaLGmkuN0


--
Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org


I know that instructor. From the comments early on tow, it sounds like
the weights were installed. Hadn't seen that video, so thanks for the
link.

I missed the comment about weights. I flew at Boulder (and did my BFR
there when grandfathering my UK license to get a US glider license in
2001, but was flying with the commercial FBO (Mile High) rather than the
club. But they only had G103 Acro IIIs then. Is it possible I flew with
the same guy? I was pleased that I recognised the Boulder airfield
immediately I saw that video.

I only had a day or two in Denver on arrival - 2-3 days at Boulder and
then it was time to head for the Free Flight World Champs at Lost Hills,
CA, and the Sierra Cup at Sacramento. I flew into and out of Denver
because I have friends there and because I really hate LAX. Besides it
also gave me the chance of flying at Boulder, Avenal and Minden
and then driving back from Sacramento on US70 to Cheyenne and then south
to Denver.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #16  
Old April 25th 20, 07:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,099
Default Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 11:28:11 AM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:15:03 -0700, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 6:03:22 AM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:26:16 -0700, krasw wrote:

ASK 21 is a bear to fly and hugely overrated. It's only pros are it's
ability to not spin and perfectly balanced main wheel location for
great ground handling. Why not buy a glider that is actually fun to
fly and performs for the same money?

ASK-21s do spin: don't let anybody tell you they won't.

I did my pre-solo spin training on one, *without* the tail weight,
though admittedly neither the instructor or myself were heavy people
and it needed a fair amount of persuasion to spin. You need a minimum
energy entry: set it up fully stalled in a straight line with the stick
on the back stop, full rudder until its rolled 45 degrees and then put
the stick in the opposite rear corner, and it rolls wings vertical as
it starts to spin. Recovery is normal.

I still don't fully understand why we used the ASK-21 for my spin
training, though: the club had, and still has, a Puchacz and I was very
familiar with both the ASK-21 and the Puchacz at the time.

Spinning a K-21 at Boulder, CO:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5iaLGmkuN0


--
Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org


I know that instructor. From the comments early on tow, it sounds like
the weights were installed. Hadn't seen that video, so thanks for the
link.

I missed the comment about weights. I flew at Boulder (and did my BFR
there when grandfathering my UK license to get a US glider license in
2001, but was flying with the commercial FBO (Mile High) rather than the
club. But they only had G103 Acro IIIs then. Is it possible I flew with
the same guy? I was pleased that I recognised the Boulder airfield
immediately I saw that video.

I only had a day or two in Denver on arrival - 2-3 days at Boulder and
then it was time to head for the Free Flight World Champs at Lost Hills,
CA, and the Sierra Cup at Sacramento. I flew into and out of Denver
because I have friends there and because I really hate LAX. Besides it
also gave me the chance of flying at Boulder, Avenal and Minden
and then driving back from Sacramento on US70 to Cheyenne and then south
to Denver.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org


I think there's a good chance you may have flown with Dr. John Campbell in 2001 at Mile High Gliding. Recall if he wore glasses?

Frank Whiteley
  #17  
Old April 25th 20, 11:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 699
Default Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality

On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:14:50 -0700, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 11:28:11 AM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:15:03 -0700, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 6:03:22 AM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:26:16 -0700, krasw wrote:

ASK 21 is a bear to fly and hugely overrated. It's only pros are
it's ability to not spin and perfectly balanced main wheel
location for great ground handling. Why not buy a glider that is
actually fun to fly and performs for the same money?

ASK-21s do spin: don't let anybody tell you they won't.

I did my pre-solo spin training on one, *without* the tail weight,
though admittedly neither the instructor or myself were heavy people
and it needed a fair amount of persuasion to spin. You need a
minimum energy entry: set it up fully stalled in a straight line
with the stick on the back stop, full rudder until its rolled 45
degrees and then put the stick in the opposite rear corner, and it
rolls wings vertical as it starts to spin. Recovery is normal.

I still don't fully understand why we used the ASK-21 for my spin
training, though: the club had, and still has, a Puchacz and I was
very familiar with both the ASK-21 and the Puchacz at the time.

Spinning a K-21 at Boulder, CO:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5iaLGmkuN0


--
Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org

I know that instructor. From the comments early on tow, it sounds
like the weights were installed. Hadn't seen that video, so thanks
for the link.

I missed the comment about weights. I flew at Boulder (and did my BFR
there when grandfathering my UK license to get a US glider license in
2001, but was flying with the commercial FBO (Mile High) rather than
the club. But they only had G103 Acro IIIs then. Is it possible I flew
with the same guy? I was pleased that I recognised the Boulder airfield
immediately I saw that video.

I only had a day or two in Denver on arrival - 2-3 days at Boulder and
then it was time to head for the Free Flight World Champs at Lost
Hills,
CA, and the Sierra Cup at Sacramento. I flew into and out of Denver
because I have friends there and because I really hate LAX. Besides it
also gave me the chance of flying at Boulder, Avenal and Minden and
then driving back from Sacramento on US70 to Cheyenne and then south to
Denver.


--
Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org


I think there's a good chance you may have flown with Dr. John Campbell
in 2001 at Mile High Gliding. Recall if he wore glasses?

I remember meeting John when I first showed up at the field, and him
saying that I needed a flight in the 2.32, but events must have happened
because I didn't get that flight. However, I did have one flight with him
that involved a climb over a Boulder supermarket carpark, followed a bit
higher by being joined by a bald eagle and ending up at 17000 just under
a big Cu. I think the climb was basically a thermal reinforced by weak
wave because when we tried pushing west into the hills we only found
horrible sink. If I'm reading the sig correctly, my BFR was signed off by
Gary Baughman. Does that sound right?

One item I missed from my first post: Between the WC at Lost hills and
the Open International bash at Sacramento, I spent a few days at
Williams, where I flew their very nice Junior and converted to their
Pegase, which was a good move since I spent the next two years flying the
club Pegase 90 back in Cambridge.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #18  
Old April 26th 20, 12:07 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,099
Default Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 4:53:37 PM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 11:14:50 -0700, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 11:28:11 AM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 09:15:03 -0700, Frank Whiteley wrote:

On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 6:03:22 AM UTC-6, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 22:26:16 -0700, krasw wrote:

ASK 21 is a bear to fly and hugely overrated. It's only pros are
it's ability to not spin and perfectly balanced main wheel
location for great ground handling. Why not buy a glider that is
actually fun to fly and performs for the same money?

ASK-21s do spin: don't let anybody tell you they won't.

I did my pre-solo spin training on one, *without* the tail weight,
though admittedly neither the instructor or myself were heavy people
and it needed a fair amount of persuasion to spin. You need a
minimum energy entry: set it up fully stalled in a straight line
with the stick on the back stop, full rudder until its rolled 45
degrees and then put the stick in the opposite rear corner, and it
rolls wings vertical as it starts to spin. Recovery is normal.

I still don't fully understand why we used the ASK-21 for my spin
training, though: the club had, and still has, a Puchacz and I was
very familiar with both the ASK-21 and the Puchacz at the time.

Spinning a K-21 at Boulder, CO:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5iaLGmkuN0


--
Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org

I know that instructor. From the comments early on tow, it sounds
like the weights were installed. Hadn't seen that video, so thanks
for the link.

I missed the comment about weights. I flew at Boulder (and did my BFR
there when grandfathering my UK license to get a US glider license in
2001, but was flying with the commercial FBO (Mile High) rather than
the club. But they only had G103 Acro IIIs then. Is it possible I flew
with the same guy? I was pleased that I recognised the Boulder airfield
immediately I saw that video.

I only had a day or two in Denver on arrival - 2-3 days at Boulder and
then it was time to head for the Free Flight World Champs at Lost
Hills,
CA, and the Sierra Cup at Sacramento. I flew into and out of Denver
because I have friends there and because I really hate LAX. Besides it
also gave me the chance of flying at Boulder, Avenal and Minden and
then driving back from Sacramento on US70 to Cheyenne and then south to
Denver.


--
Martin | martin at Gregorie | gregorie dot org


I think there's a good chance you may have flown with Dr. John Campbell
in 2001 at Mile High Gliding. Recall if he wore glasses?

I remember meeting John when I first showed up at the field, and him
saying that I needed a flight in the 2.32, but events must have happened
because I didn't get that flight. However, I did have one flight with him
that involved a climb over a Boulder supermarket carpark, followed a bit
higher by being joined by a bald eagle and ending up at 17000 just under
a big Cu. I think the climb was basically a thermal reinforced by weak
wave because when we tried pushing west into the hills we only found
horrible sink. If I'm reading the sig correctly, my BFR was signed off by
Gary Baughman. Does that sound right?

One item I missed from my first post: Between the WC at Lost hills and
the Open International bash at Sacramento, I spent a few days at
Williams, where I flew their very nice Junior and converted to their
Pegase, which was a good move since I spent the next two years flying the
club Pegase 90 back in Cambridge.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org


Sadly, John passed away ten years ago of esophageal cancer. Still miss him and he's the one who really got me involved in SSA activities. Gary appears to have moved to Seattle and may be active with the Seattle Glider Council. Doesn't appear to have raced since 2009 though. The instructor in the spin video is Bob Faris.

Frank Whiteley
  #19  
Old April 26th 20, 02:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 668
Default Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality

On Friday, 24 April 2020 20:11:54 UTC+3, Martin Gregorie wrote:

So, on the whole I prefer trainers to be more unforgiving than the ASK-21
or the G-103. Personally, I like the Puchacz a lot - its much more
pleasant to fly solo than either an ASK-21 or a G103.

But, all I really was saying that thinking an ASK-21 won't spin is an
attitude that may catch you out one day. Its manual also says it won't
spin inverted but there are or were test pilots at Edwards who showed
that to be wrong.


I have been flying ASK 21s for 25 years first as a student and then as a flight instructor. I have never witnessed or heard anyone spinning 21, unless equipped with spin kit which we have. I would rate it as spin proof as anything can be. Statistics agree with this.

You referring to Puchacz as forgiving trainer. It is more pleasant to fly but not forgiving at all. Are you aware that over 10% of Puchacz fleet has been spinned accidentally to ground? This is absolutely appalling statistic.
  #20  
Old April 26th 20, 02:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 668
Default Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality

On Saturday, 25 April 2020 19:24:21 UTC+3, wrote:
On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 1:26:19 AM UTC-4, krasw wrote:
ASK 21 is a bear to fly and hugely overrated. It's only pros are it's ability to not spin and perfectly balanced main wheel location for great ground handling. Why not buy a glider that is actually fun to fly and performs for the same money?


My folks did not get the message that they are not having fun in the '21.


Put them to DG-1000 and ask again.
 




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