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Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 26th 20, 03:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Munk
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Posts: 179
Default Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality

From an economical point of view: the ASK 21 is the only
twoseater glassfibre glider certified for 18,000 hours, not just
12,000 like most...

  #22  
Old April 26th 20, 03:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
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Posts: 699
Default Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality

On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 06:54:11 -0700, krasw wrote:

On Friday, 24 April 2020 20:11:54 UTC+3, Martin Gregorie wrote:

So, on the whole I prefer trainers to be more unforgiving than the
ASK-21 or the G-103. Personally, I like the Puchacz a lot - its much
more pleasant to fly solo than either an ASK-21 or a G103.

But, all I really was saying that thinking an ASK-21 won't spin is an
attitude that may catch you out one day. Its manual also says it won't
spin inverted but there are or were test pilots at Edwards who showed
that to be wrong.


I have been flying ASK 21s for 25 years first as a student and then as a
flight instructor. I have never witnessed or heard anyone spinning 21,
unless equipped with spin kit which we have. I would rate it as spin
proof as anything can be. Statistics agree with this.

Well, now you know that its possible to spin it without the kit: my club
has never had a tail-weight kit and doesn't now despite owning two
ASK-21s.

We still have our Puchacz and for spin training or a spin refresher. That
is what I'd expect to do annual spin checks in. I'm looking forward to
doing just that as soon as we can fly again.

I didn't say spinning an ASK-21 without weights is easy, just that it can
be done if both pilots are medium to light weight.

I had a trial flight at Blue Ridge Soaring (16 Oct 1999). The CFIG was
large, I'm not. Anyhow, he attempted to demonstrate a spin in their
ASK-21, the first glass glider I'd even seen, and could not get it to
spin, *but* (1) he was heavy and (2) he tried to provoke a spin while
flying quite a bit faster than stall speed. All his attempts seemed to
start to spin, but became the beginning of a spiral dive after around
half a turn and were promptly rolled level and recovered.

But read the Edwards report to get a professional opinion about it. Their
view is that an ASK-21 will spin (upright AND inverted) and stall but
that the POH was inadequate and incorrect. Presumably the POH has been
amended for the ASK-21B.

You referring to Puchacz as forgiving trainer.

Wrong. I said its nicer to fly solo than an ASK-21, not that it is
forgiving. You certainly won't find me flying one slowly below 1000 ft.
Please don't misquote me again.

Are you aware that over 10% of Puchacz
fleet has been spinned accidentally to ground? This is absolutely
appalling statistic.

I don't know whether the 10% figure is right, but I am well aware that
quite a lot of them have been crashed.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #23  
Old April 27th 20, 02:03 AM
Ventus_a Ventus_a is offline
Senior Member
 
First recorded activity by AviationBanter: May 2010
Posts: 202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Gregorie[_6_] View Post
On Sun, 26 Apr 2020 06:54:11 -0700, krasw wrote:

On Friday, 24 April 2020 20:11:54 UTC+3, Martin Gregorie wrote:

So, on the whole I prefer trainers to be more unforgiving than the
ASK-21 or the G-103. Personally, I like the Puchacz a lot - its much
more pleasant to fly solo than either an ASK-21 or a G103.

But, all I really was saying that thinking an ASK-21 won't spin is an
attitude that may catch you out one day. Its manual also says it won't
spin inverted but there are or were test pilots at Edwards who showed
that to be wrong.


I have been flying ASK 21s for 25 years first as a student and then as a
flight instructor. I have never witnessed or heard anyone spinning 21,
unless equipped with spin kit which we have. I would rate it as spin
proof as anything can be. Statistics agree with this.

Well, now you know that its possible to spin it without the kit: my club
has never had a tail-weight kit and doesn't now despite owning two
ASK-21s.

We still have our Puchacz and for spin training or a spin refresher. That
is what I'd expect to do annual spin checks in. I'm looking forward to
doing just that as soon as we can fly again.

I didn't say spinning an ASK-21 without weights is easy, just that it can
be done if both pilots are medium to light weight.

I had a trial flight at Blue Ridge Soaring (16 Oct 1999). The CFIG was
large, I'm not. Anyhow, he attempted to demonstrate a spin in their
ASK-21, the first glass glider I'd even seen, and could not get it to
spin, *but* (1) he was heavy and (2) he tried to provoke a spin while
flying quite a bit faster than stall speed. All his attempts seemed to
start to spin, but became the beginning of a spiral dive after around
half a turn and were promptly rolled level and recovered.

But read the Edwards report to get a professional opinion about it. Their
view is that an ASK-21 will spin (upright AND inverted) and stall but
that the POH was inadequate and incorrect. Presumably the POH has been
amended for the ASK-21B.

You referring to Puchacz as forgiving trainer.

Wrong. I said its nicer to fly solo than an ASK-21, not that it is
forgiving. You certainly won't find me flying one slowly below 1000 ft.
Please don't misquote me again.

Are you aware that over 10% of Puchacz
fleet has been spinned accidentally to ground? This is absolutely
appalling statistic.

I don't know whether the 10% figure is right, but I am well aware that
quite a lot of them have been crashed.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org
Hi Martin

The original FM was updated in 1991 to reflect the new information from the Edwards spinning flight test evaluation

https://www.alexander-schleicher.de/...TM23_US_HB.pdf

:-) Colin
  #24  
Old April 27th 20, 02:46 AM
Ventus_a Ventus_a is offline
Senior Member
 
First recorded activity by AviationBanter: May 2010
Posts: 202
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Munk View Post
From an economical point of view: the ASK 21 is the only
twoseater glassfibre glider certified for 18,000 hours, not just
12,000 like most...
Hi Eric

In 1992 the K21 had a TN for service life extension issued that started with inspections at 3000 and 6000 hrs followed with inspection again at 7000 hrs and at thousand hour intervals to a total of 12000 hrs.

As a result of those inspections there was an updated TN in 2003 that had 3 stages.

The 1st stage had inspections at 3000 hrs, 6000 hrs and an increase to fly to 9000 hrs subject to manufacturer approval

The 2nd stage involved inspection at 9000 hrs to gain approval to fly to 12000 hrs

The 3rd stage then requires further inspection along with the total aerobatic hours being 12.5% or less of the airframes hours for Schleicher to decide on releasing the glider for service up to 15000 hrs. At 15000 hrs the inspection is repeated and the glider may be approved for an extension to 18000 hrs.

All in all not a trivial thing and shows the importance of accurate flight time recording.

As more time in service is gained with all types of gliders, not just the K21, further life increases among all types can be expected which is a good thing

As a matter of interest, what sort of hours are clubs out there putting on their trainers?

:-) Colin
  #25  
Old April 27th 20, 03:03 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Steve Bralla
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Posts: 38
Default Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality


You referring to Puchacz as forgiving trainer. It is more pleasant to fly but not forgiving at all. Are you aware that over 10% of Puchacz fleet has been spinned accidentally to ground? This is absolutely appalling statistic.



Don't forget that the Puchacz can be flown without the rudder. Several years ago the AGCSC Puchacz landed at Warner Springs without the rudder and without the pilots (?) noticing. The rudder was never found.

  #26  
Old April 27th 20, 06:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
krasw
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Posts: 668
Default Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality

On Monday, 27 April 2020 05:03:30 UTC+3, Steve Bralla wrote:
You referring to Puchacz as forgiving trainer. It is more pleasant to fly but not forgiving at all. Are you aware that over 10% of Puchacz fleet has been spinned accidentally to ground? This is absolutely appalling statistic.



Don't forget that the Puchacz can be flown without the rudder. Several years ago the AGCSC Puchacz landed at Warner Springs without the rudder and without the pilots (?) noticing. The rudder was never found.


I certainly know that rudder can fall off during ground roll.
  #27  
Old April 27th 20, 09:25 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Nick Hill[_3_]
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Posts: 50
Default Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality

On 24/04/2020 22:15, Martin Gregorie wrote:

the only
thing I wasn't keen on was getting into and out of it - not quite as bad
as an ASH-25, but close. However, entry and egress from the 1001 looks to
be a lot easier with its having a nose-wheel and being much closer to the
floor.



There has always been different undercarriage options. Just that most
earlier models were aimed at cross-country and went for the high main
wheel option.

The default for the 1001-Club version is the one with the nose wheel
which is more appropriate for a trainer.

--

Nick Hill
  #28  
Old April 27th 20, 03:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net
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Posts: 276
Default Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality

I'd like to know how a new club only three years old convinced the IRS to agree to allowing it to be a 501-C3? I know of several much older clubs that were recently denied this classification.
  #29  
Old April 27th 20, 03:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 317
Default Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality

You almost have to apply under a new name, alot of paperwork and some things you have to prove annually.

Prescott Area Soaring 501(c)3

CH
  #30  
Old April 27th 20, 03:35 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 46
Default Our New Club Ship Becoming Reality

The "average" application takes around 4mo to be approved; with outliers a bit beyond 1yr, depending on how it was set up. There are many different types of 501(c)(x) non-profits, some social clubs go for the 501(c)(7). Regardless, the IRS does permit a retroactive status to funds taken in when the entity was first established (depending on rules). Caution; the type of 501(c) dictates how assets are distributed after dissolution of the organization (e.g., must be donated to an "in-kind" entity vs individuals.

On Monday, April 27, 2020 at 9:00:42 AM UTC-5, John DeRosa OHM Ω http://aviation.derosaweb.net wrote:
I'd like to know how a new club only three years old convinced the IRS to agree to allowing it to be a 501-C3? I know of several much older clubs that were recently denied this classification.


 




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