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The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?



 
 
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  #101  
Old March 27th 21, 01:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Gregg Ballou[_2_]
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Posts: 63
Default The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?

On Friday, March 26, 2021 at 1:27:47 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
Speaking as an 'average Joe' who was never cut out to be an elite glider pilot, a person who have flown consistently for a decade .... The club system is an anachronism that works best when there is a super-abundance of people who are eager to become pilots. The system advances the people who turn out to be the best pilots. At the same time it discourages weaker candidates, and so to speak, diverts them to the 'infantry' (or in the present day, to some less challenging hobby). This system worked fine in gliding's golden ages.

In the present day, fewer people want to become pilots, so we need a system that advances people who have less talent, less discretionary time, less motivation, and in many cases less ability to learn quickly (a common trait of the 50-60 y.o. students who now have time/money/motivation to do gliding without the distractions of family-starting and career-building for the next 20 years). I mean... going a week or two between flight lessons (and other impediments at clubs) make it hard for the average Joe/Jane to progress. Try to do that for a year or two, get frustrated, quit, and lose your entire investment of time and money without achieving your goal (that almost happened to me!). These less gifted pilots become contributing/sustaining club members once they get over the hurdle of initial training.

I recommend only two paths for the average Joe/Jane to be come a glider pilot:

1)Take a 'gliding vacation', a week or so of concentrated training at a commercial operation, follow up with training at the local club. Take a second/third gliding vacation as needed. Possibly finish your rating at a commercial operation. Then fly more dual and learn to soar.

2)Learn to fly power plane first. In USA, do glider add-on rating at a commercial flight school. Follow on with lots of dual flights at local gliding club to learn how to soar.

These options are not so expensive because the student has a better chance of achieving their goal, and the cost might be about the same as traditional club training, if it takes fewer flights over fewer months. A student who quits club training pays the highest price.

I strongly recommend gliding club-based training to young people who have the opportunity to join a viable youth program at a club where they can train along side other people their age. A few exceptions (above-average Joe/Jane) will find their way through the club training gauntlet without my encouragement. Others will stumble into the maw of glider club training, get frustrated, quit, tell their friends, and end up forever lost to gliding. Too bad, but I did not send them down that path.

Some clubs have 'training camps', that provide concentrated training over a week, similar to what one can do at a commercial operation. That seems like a good idea. In some places, these camps are for students with no prior experience.

We need to stop lying to kids and telling them there will be plenty of time to chase rainbows after the corporate world has discarded them. And we need to start telling them if they want to be good at something they'd best learn it while their brains are still pliable fresh sponges. Of course as a society we won't, cause that would be bad for the bottom line. Now all you lurking potential glider pilots get back to work, your crushing student loans are not going to repay themselves. Of course borrowing money is something else we need to stop telling people to do. But we won't.
Gliding participation is downstream from culture. If the culture is broken gliding will never be robust.
  #102  
Old March 27th 21, 10:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
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Posts: 2,099
Default The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?

On Thursday, March 25, 2021 at 8:29:39 AM UTC-6, Mark Mocho wrote:
The USAF Academy's soaring program is also the cheapest initial pilot training in the Air Force.

The Discii were purchased by the Academy Graduates Association for the cadet soaring team, a practice that is no longer allowed, hence no upgrades to that racing fleet. The DG-1001s are used in aerobatic competitions and presumably at XC camps, but not in contests to date. Cadet flight time and training is not recorded on their USAF flight records because, .... USAFA Cadets are not military members until they graduate and are sworn. Therefore that air time does not qualify for FAA ratings consideration as does military flight time.
  #103  
Old March 29th 21, 07:59 PM
Walt Connelly Walt Connelly is offline
Senior Member
 
First recorded activity by AviationBanter: Aug 2010
Posts: 365
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Whiteley View Post
On Thursday, March 25, 2021 at 8:29:39 AM UTC-6, Mark Mocho wrote:
The USAF Academy's soaring program is also the cheapest initial pilot training in the Air Force.

The Discii were purchased by the Academy Graduates Association for the cadet soaring team, a practice that is no longer allowed, hence no upgrades to that racing fleet. The DG-1001s are used in aerobatic competitions and presumably at XC camps, but not in contests to date. Cadet flight time and training is not recorded on their USAF flight records because, .... USAFA Cadets are not military members until they graduate and are sworn. Therefore that air time does not qualify for FAA ratings consideration as does military flight time.
Not sure this is correct. USAFA Cadets are not military members until they graduate? My understanding was that they were under 38 U.S. Code § 1965 - Definitions
U.S. Code

For the purpose of this subchapter—
(1) The term “active duty” means—
(A) full-time duty in the Armed Forces, other than active duty for training;
(B) full-time duty (other than for training purposes) as a commissioned officer of the Regular or Reserve Corps [1] of the Public Health Service;
(C) full-time duty as a commissioned officer of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration; and
(D) full-time duty as a cadet or midshipman at the United States Military Academy, United States Naval Academy, United States Air Force Academy, or the United States Coast Guard Academy.

So a full-time member of the USAFA would be ACTIVE DUTY. And while they may not be logging glider time to count towards training when they graduate and go to UPT they do select students to become glider instructors. Are those instructors not given General Aviation, FAA certificates as commercial glider pilots and instructors? Or are they as member of the USAFA exempt from the rules the rest of us must follow? Doesn't seem quite right to me.

I've only known a couple of ring knockers during my time as an enlisted swine in the USAF. One put an unopened can (an early pop top version) of Ravioli in the convection oven on the Airborne Battlefield Command and Control Center. When he returned to his seat with his Nomex gloves and popped it open it exploded and distributed itself all over the capsule. The look on his face with red tomato sauce covering him and those around him AND the maps of Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam was to die for. The Director, Airborne Battle Staff was not amused. We were finding Ravioli in that particular capsule for weeks afterwards. The best of the best? Well, maybe a few were.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot
  #104  
Old March 30th 21, 03:31 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
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Posts: 2,099
Default The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?

On Monday, March 29, 2021 at 6:43:13 PM UTC-6, Walt Connelly wrote:
Frank Whiteley;1040497 Wrote:
On Thursday, March 25, 2021 at 8:29:39 AM UTC-6, Mark Mocho wrote:-
The USAF Academy's soaring program is also the cheapest initial pilot
training in the Air Force.-
The Discii were purchased by the Academy Graduates Association for the
cadet soaring team, a practice that is no longer allowed, hence no
upgrades to that racing fleet. The DG-1001s are used in aerobatic
competitions and presumably at XC camps, but not in contests to date.
Cadet flight time and training is not recorded on their USAF flight
records because, .... USAFA Cadets are not military members until they
graduate and are sworn. Therefore that air time does not qualify for
FAA ratings consideration as does military flight time.

Not sure this is correct. USAFA Cadets are not military members until
they graduate? My understanding was that they were under 38 U.S. Code §
1965 - Definitions
U.S. Code

For the purpose of this subchapter—
(1) The term “active duty” means—
(A) full-time duty in the Armed Forces, other than active duty for
training;
(B) full-time duty (other than for training purposes) as a commissioned
officer of the Regular or Reserve Corps [1] of the Public Health
Service;
(C) full-time duty as a commissioned officer of the National Oceanic and
Atmospheric Administration; and
(D) full-time duty as a cadet or midshipman at the United States
Military Academy, United States Naval Academy, United States Air Force
Academy, or the United States Coast Guard Academy.

So a full-time member of the USAFA would be ACTIVE DUTY. And while they
may not be logging glider time to count towards training when they
graduate and go to UPT they do select students to become glider
instructors. Are those instructors not given General Aviation, FAA
certificates as commercial glider pilots and instructors? Or are they
as member of the USAFA exempt from the rules the rest of us must follow?
Doesn't seem quite right to me.

I've only known a couple of ring knockers during my time as an enlisted
swine in the USAF. One put an unopened can (an early pop top version) of
Ravioli in the convection oven on the Airborne Battlefield Command and
Control Center. When he returned to his seat with his Nomex gloves and
popped it open it exploded and distributed itself all over the capsule.
The look on his face with red tomato sauce covering him and those around
him AND the maps of Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam was to die for. The
Director, Airborne Battle Staff was not amused. We were finding Ravioli
in that particular capsule for weeks afterwards. The best of the best?
Well, maybe a few were.

Walt Connelly
Former Tow Pilot
Now Happy Helicopter Pilot




--
Walt Connelly

Walt,
Considerable effort was made to have their academy flight experience made part of their military record and recognized for FAA credit, all to no avail for the reason stated. You may have found an argument that was ignored or not considered. There are approximately 75 G-wings pinned on USAFA gliding instructors annually. Not all cadets that perform in the USAFA aviation programs continue on to flying positions in the regular air force. Maybe we can take another stab at it. I'll check in with my USAFA contacts.

Frank Whiteley
  #105  
Old March 30th 21, 04:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
biff the dotard
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Posts: 4
Default The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?

On Monday, March 29, 2021 at 6:43:13 PM UTC-6, Walt Connelly wrote:

I've only known a couple of ring knockers during my time as an enlisted
swine in the USAF. One put an unopened can (an early pop top version) of
Ravioli in the convection oven on the Airborne Battlefield Command and
Control Center. When he returned to his seat with his Nomex gloves and
popped it open it exploded and distributed itself all over the capsule.
The look on his face with red tomato sauce covering him and those around
him AND the maps of Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam was to die for. The
Director, Airborne Battle Staff was not amused. We were finding Ravioli
in that particular capsule for weeks afterwards. The best of the best?
Well, maybe a few were.


Exploding ravioli? You can do much better than that in the fine art of officer and Zoomie bashing. How about the USAFA grad / retired AF Lt Col fighter pilot / Potato Head posing as an angry, aging, Kevlar-cladded Beetle Bailey / Zip Ties Rambo on the Senate floor? He's a true disgrace to the uniform. Sadly, he's also a paragon of a certain tribal strain of fight-to-the-death-for-my-beliefs "patriots" that have long flowed through the Academy, where the ongoing $158M Cadet Chapel renovation is apparently deemed essential to the matriculation of officer candidates. "Kill'em all and let God sort them out" is a literal threat when you understand the faith-meets-aggression crucible that inflames the far-right craziness among some graduates from USAFA sur Colorado Springs.

Most humiliating and telling, the militant bluster, under police questioning, quickly crumbled to yet another lie, "My thought process there was I would pick [the zip ties] up and give them to an officer...and I honestly forgot about them." Sure, uh huh.

Luckily, Larry the Insurrectionist Zoomie doesn't appear to have any gliding/soaring connection.
  #106  
Old March 30th 21, 05:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?

Somebody needs to take a chill pill...

Dan
5J

On 3/30/21 9:57 AM, biff the dotard wrote:
On Monday, March 29, 2021 at 6:43:13 PM UTC-6, Walt Connelly wrote:

I've only known a couple of ring knockers during my time as an enlisted
swine in the USAF. One put an unopened can (an early pop top version) of
Ravioli in the convection oven on the Airborne Battlefield Command and
Control Center. When he returned to his seat with his Nomex gloves and
popped it open it exploded and distributed itself all over the capsule.
The look on his face with red tomato sauce covering him and those around
him AND the maps of Laos, Cambodia and Vietnam was to die for. The
Director, Airborne Battle Staff was not amused. We were finding Ravioli
in that particular capsule for weeks afterwards. The best of the best?
Well, maybe a few were.


Exploding ravioli? You can do much better than that in the fine art of officer and Zoomie bashing. How about the USAFA grad / retired AF Lt Col fighter pilot / Potato Head posing as an angry, aging, Kevlar-cladded Beetle Bailey / Zip Ties Rambo on the Senate floor? He's a true disgrace to the uniform. Sadly, he's also a paragon of a certain tribal strain of fight-to-the-death-for-my-beliefs "patriots" that have long flowed through the Academy, where the ongoing $158M Cadet Chapel renovation is apparently deemed essential to the matriculation of officer candidates. "Kill'em all and let God sort them out" is a literal threat when you understand the faith-meets-aggression crucible that inflames the far-right craziness among some graduates from USAFA sur Colorado Springs.

Most humiliating and telling, the militant bluster, under police questioning, quickly crumbled to yet another lie, "My thought process there was I would pick [the zip ties] up and give them to an officer...and I honestly forgot about them." Sure, uh huh.

Luckily, Larry the Insurrectionist Zoomie doesn't appear to have any gliding/soaring connection.

  #107  
Old March 30th 21, 06:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
biff the dotard
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Posts: 4
Default The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?

On Tuesday, March 30, 2021 at 10:24:55 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Somebody needs to take a chill pill...

Dan
5J


Shack! Good hit on a nerve.

On the other hand, to answer an earlier question about Academy grads who are involved in soaring, Jim Payne comes to mind. Chesley "Sully" Sullengerger also flew at USAFA Soaring. His most notable gliding achievement was with an Airbus 320.

I know eight other glider pilots who flew at USAFA Soaring. None glided to 76000' or the Hudson River. But neither did they embarrass themselves and their alma mater in a spectacularly public way.

  #108  
Old March 30th 21, 07:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?

As a former USAF E-5, O-3, and pilot, I simply took issue with your lame
comments. No nerves hit.

I've no doubt that any of the USAFA grads who happened to participate in
the gliding program could have done as Payne and Sullenberger did. They
just didn't have the same opportunities to do so.

Oh, and I got my commission through OTS and discovered gliding on my own.

Dan
5J

On 3/30/21 11:00 AM, biff the dotard wrote:
On Tuesday, March 30, 2021 at 10:24:55 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Somebody needs to take a chill pill...

Dan
5J


Shack! Good hit on a nerve.

On the other hand, to answer an earlier question about Academy grads who are involved in soaring, Jim Payne comes to mind. Chesley "Sully" Sullengerger also flew at USAFA Soaring. His most notable gliding achievement was with an Airbus 320.

I know eight other glider pilots who flew at USAFA Soaring. None glided to 76000' or the Hudson River. But neither did they embarrass themselves and their alma mater in a spectacularly public way.

  #109  
Old March 30th 21, 07:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Gregg Ballou[_2_]
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Posts: 63
Default The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?

Those academy kids with their tailhook parties are a disgrace ; )
  #110  
Old April 2nd 21, 02:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Foster
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Posts: 354
Default The decline of gliding - a worldwide issue?

On Tuesday, March 16, 2021 at 8:21:09 AM UTC-6, wrote:
Gliding is not in decline because it has become too expensive. It is in decline because it has failed to adapt to the needs and demands of society as it is today.

"I know what I'm going to do for fun this weekend....I'll spend my Saturday hanging around with 85 year olds, pushing heavy gliders about all day and hopefully I'll get a 20 min flight in return for my efforts".


Anyone who thinks finances are NOT a factor in the decline of gliding, has their head up their a$$. It may not be the only factor, but it most definitely is a major contributor. Most successful clubs are large. With large clubs comes significantly more dues, thus padding the bottom line, and thus enabling them to operate nicer equipment. How much $ do you think that club has invested in their equipment that operates 5 tugs and 5 K21s? Where did that money come from? There is this concept of critical mass, where you need a certain number of paying members to support the success of the operation. Below that, things start to dwindle and die. I did my training at a club that had a 2-33 and a Lark. Members hated flying the Lark. The instructor did not teach XC because he had no personal experience in it, and if the 2-33 landed out, it was a HUGE deal to trailer it back to the club. After getting my license in the 2-33, I bought my own glass ship, but they refused to tow me because I hadn't been checked out in it. But they also couldn't offer training to transition me from a 2-33 into a glass ship because the club didn't have one. They couldn't afford it. So I had to go elsewhere to get the training I needed to transition into my own glider. But that hasn't happened yet. I had to go to a commercial operation that charges SIGNIFICANTLY more than what the club charges. One 2-days weekend cost me almost as much as my entire ab-initio training cost me at the club. This has further delayed my training because I've had to take breaks from my training to save up money, often going 2 months between lessons during a limited soaring season (May to September). Now I will be the first to admit that the commercial operation is giving me excellent, quality training, and is making me a better pilot. But the financial aspect of it has been the biggest limiting factor in my development as a glider pilot. I live in a part of the country where there are no active soaring operations. I've had to travel 4hrs one way just to get training, and I see tremendous potential for soaring in my immediate area. I dream of starting a local club. But again, the biggest hinderance to that dream is the financial aspect of it. There just isn't enough of an interest locally to support the necessary financial investment needed to start something and "get it off the ground". I do agree with G2 that Condor has tremendous potential at generating interest among young people, particularly when it is used with the immersion of VR. I hope that one day this can be my reality of working with young people locally to set up an operation that is both affordable and captivating. I believe it is doable. But it will take a significant capital investment that I just don't have at this time. So please, don't say that gliding is not too expensive. Expense is the single biggest barrier I'm facing in my own personal development, and in moving forward with my vision.
 




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