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Future Club Training Gliders



 
 
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  #111  
Old September 19th 10, 10:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Berry[_2_]
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Posts: 107
Default Future Club Training Gliders

In article
,
" wrote:


I see many pilots do what I call "landing in a pile".....they touch
down, and immediately let the stick go forward........jamming the nose
wheel (or skid) onto the ground..........some even push the stick
forward!!! WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!!!............

With a nose dragger glider, the nose wheel is NOT a "landing gear", it
is merely for ground handling and slow taxi....SAME for the skid on a
nose dragger glider.........it is not a "landing" skid, it is just to
support the glider when stationary or during the very beginning of the
take off roll, and the very end of the landing roll. Same for the
nose wheel on a tri gear airplane...........

Bad habits come easily.......in our repair shop, we have had a rash of
airplane repairs where the tricycle gear airplane was landed nose
wheel first.......(or bounced into a nose first landing) resulting in
flatened front wheel, bent landing gear, bent firewall, and sometimes
prop strike and engine rebuild.........I see "wheel barrow " landings
at our field all the time......BAD TECHNIQUE!!!!!

Airplanes, gliders, nose dragger, tri gear, tail dragger, all should
be landed nose up, tail down. Landing loads taken by the main gear,
and pitch control maintained throughout the ground roll.......

So don't blame the 2-33......

Cookie


On one of my wife's 2-33 instruction flights: The instructor wanted to
land and stop quickly so he would not have to push the glider too far
back to the takeoff point. He jammed the skid onto the paved runway at
touchdown. The friction heated the metal skid to incandescence and
caught the wooden skid underneath on fire!
  #112  
Old September 20th 10, 06:57 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Default Future Club Training Gliders

On Sep 20, 2:26*am, bildan wrote:
This primary learning will transfer to a Grob and other gliders where
it puts the new pilot at risk of a damaging accident. *When a new
pilot really, really needs to stop, it's going to be hard for him not
to push the nose down.


When you really really need to stop, pushing the nose down hard works
well on anything that doesn't have a nose wheel. We were taught to do
it in an emergency in the Blanik L13 and I've seen it done in a Grob.

By "really really need to stop" I mean that you're going to die or be
seriously injured if you don't stop and you don't care about damaging
the nose skin and structure or slamming the tail back down afterwards.

Incidentally, someone landed their Cirrus on a suburban street here on
Sunday morning. They reportedly deliberately used the poles on either
side of a pedestrian crossing to slow down. I believe my instructors
mentioned tree trunks in this context, but whatever...

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/glid...-alive-3785681
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4144...g-and-a-prayer
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10674749
  #113  
Old September 20th 10, 09:58 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Doe
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Posts: 378
Default Future Club Training Gliders

In article 751a02b3-2be7-490a-a3e2-ca1f9b850701
@u31g2000pru.googlegroups.com, says...

On Sep 20, 2:26*am, bildan wrote:
This primary learning will transfer to a Grob and other gliders where
it puts the new pilot at risk of a damaging accident. *When a new
pilot really, really needs to stop, it's going to be hard for him not
to push the nose down.


When you really really need to stop, pushing the nose down hard works
well on anything that doesn't have a nose wheel. We were taught to do
it in an emergency in the Blanik L13 and I've seen it done in a Grob.

By "really really need to stop" I mean that you're going to die or be
seriously injured if you don't stop and you don't care about damaging
the nose skin and structure or slamming the tail back down afterwards.

Incidentally, someone landed their Cirrus on a suburban street here on
Sunday morning. They reportedly deliberately used the poles on either
side of a pedestrian crossing to slow down. I believe my instructors
mentioned tree trunks in this context, but whatever...

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/glid...-alive-3785681
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/4144...g-and-a-prayer
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/ar...ectid=10674749


stuff.co.nz! - they just *have* to bring religion into it! Grrr

--
Duncan.
  #114  
Old September 20th 10, 12:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_5_]
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Posts: 1,224
Default Future Club Training Gliders

On Sun, 19 Sep 2010 22:57:15 -0700, Bruce Hoult wrote:


Incidentally, someone landed their Cirrus on a suburban street here on
Sunday morning. They reportedly deliberately used the poles on either
side of a pedestrian crossing to slow down. I believe my instructors
mentioned tree trunks in this context, but whatever...

My cousin, who lives in Waikanae, said it was a turbulent, gusty day but
none of the reports mention the weather. How would you rate it?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |
  #115  
Old September 20th 10, 01:31 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 194
Default Future Club Training Gliders

On Sep 19, 10:30*am, bildan wrote:
On Sep 18, 8:23*pm, "





wrote:
.


Just to keep this discussion interesting, we can now argue whether a
low energy tailwheel-first landing is OK or bad for a modern glider
(assuming a reasonable sink rate at touchdown)...


Kirk


Ok....I'll start.........on a tail dragger glider.... landing *"ever
so slightly" tail first touch down is a good thing..........if the
approach is stable, and the sink rate is reasonable at touch
down..........by touching the tail first, the main gear will come to
the ground next, lowering the angle of attack on the wing, making it
not likely for the glider to "bounce".


Landing slightly tail first will also indicate that the glider is in
the "low energy" state.....i.e. as slow as practical..(not as slow as
possible, just as slow as practical)


Landing slightly tail first should not put any undue stress on the
airframe, tailwheel/skid etc, because the "weight" at the tail is very
light..........the CG is far forward of the tail...........the glider
will soon settle (softly) on the main gear, where the majority of the
weight is taken by the robust structure / shock absorber etc
there.....


Note............this technique does not mean ....get close to the
ground and jerk the stick back......this would cause the tail to slam
into the ground with consideral impact......not good.


Landing tail high in a taildragger glider is not a good
thing........It indicates excess speed.......since the CG is behind
the main gear, there is a tendancy of the tail to drop after main
touch down, increasing the angle of attack, and possibly resulting in
a *"bounce".


Yes, a "wheel type" landing can be done successfully in a taildragger
glider, but in requires a slight stick forward pressure after touch
down to prevent bouncing, (by lowering the angle of attack.....) * and
excessive speed, onger ground roll etc.


Landing tail first in a nose dragger glider is not a good
thing.................


Landing tail first in a nose dragger will result in the main gear next
touching down, but since the CG is in FRONT of this wheel, the
tendancy is for the glider to continue to pitch forward (nose down)
and contact the skid /nosewheel immediately..........as I mentioned
earlier, the nose wheel or skid is not a "landing gear"......


IMHO......a nose dragger glider should be landed with "low
energy" *(slow airspeed), but not so slow that the tail touches first
(too slow)......The nose skid/ wheel should be held off the ground
during the ground taxi, as long as elevator authority allows......when
the nose finally drops, the ground speed is very slow........


Same technique works for 2-33, 1-26, *ASK-21, Grob 103......


This is far different from a "wheel type landing" and far different
form "flying the glider on"


Cookie


Well said.

I would differ a tiny bit in that a very slight tail low touchdown in
a nose wheel glider isn't going to be a problem - but nothing more
than a couple of inches low.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


yes....agreed......After I gave some thought to my post, I realized I
should have included that ..........

But not in a 2-33 as a tail first laniding in a 2-33 is in my opinion
under the category of too slow.........this is due to the shape of the
33's belly and tail.......(bulbous belly and high tail).


Cookie
  #116  
Old September 20th 10, 01:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Future Club Training Gliders

On Sep 19, 11:52*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Sep 18, 5:53*pm, ray conlon wrote:



Having flown a number of different gliders and power planes over the
years, no two of them handle or land the same, different aircraft take
different methods of landing, what works for a Cessna 150 may not do
so well in a Bonanza, or what works in a 2-33 wont wor'k *well in a
Blanik,Lark,ASK21, etc. Thats why we have instructors to work us
throught the transistion. Orvile and Willber were the only guys who
had a valid reson to teach themselves to fly..


Having flown a number of gliders and power planes over the years, they
are all pretty much landed the same - at the slowest possible speed
allowed by the configuration of the landing gear (and the conditions
at hand - for example a strong gusty crosswind may require a different
technique than a calm day on a short field). *It's that gear
configuration that requires different techniques for different
airplanes, not aerodynamics.

That gear configuration is a driving factor in how 2-33s and Blaniks
are landed vs how most modern gliders are landed (I say most because
the PW-5 & 6 may be different, but I have no first hand experience in
those two).

If a student isn't taught the REASON for the specific landing
technique (fixed attitude, slightly tail low, "flown-on" in 2-33s and
Blaniks, due to weak tail vs tail and main at same time, min energy in
glass such as K-21 or G-103) they will probably think that the first
technique they are taught will apply to all future gliders. *That can
get very expensive.

Kirk


2-33 should NOT be "flown on" as you suggest above............

Yes, bottom line is "low energy landing" in ANY aircraft..........Low
energy means "slow"....but not "slow a possible" it means slow as
practical..........this leads to the nuances.

But any glider landed in a low energy configuration will not tear
itself into pieces as the 2-33 trained grob pilot did in the scenerio
referred to in the earlier post.

Thousands of pilots have been properly trained in 2-33 and progress
seccessfully to all kinds of "more advanced" gliders without
issue..........

True that a poorly trained 2-33 pilot, or one who has degenerated into
bad habbits, may take those problems with him into the more advanced
gliders.........but this is a training / pilot problem, not an
aircraft problem. I see plenty of pilots, airplane and glider, who
have developed some bad landing habits and have never set foti n a
2-33.

The 2-33 will withstand less than perfect landings by beginners
because it is designed to do so as a TRAINER. We are all allowed to
make mistakes.........The idea is for the student / instructor to work
out all these problems early in the program. Once consistant good
landings are made in the 2-33 the pilot can then easily adapt to any
glider. If poor landing technique is tolerated in the 2-33 then the
less forgiving gliders will show this defeciency.

But this is all the more arguement for the 2-33 as a trainer, and not
using Grob or ASK as a trainer.......

Cookie

  #117  
Old September 20th 10, 01:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Future Club Training Gliders

On Sep 19, 11:56*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
Tell me of any nose dragger where the method is to jam the stick
forward right at touch down as the guy did in the 2-33 / Grob story
above.........


Cookie


Under certain circumstances (off field landing in very short field)
that is exactly the method that should be used - IF you are in a
glider with a big skid and useless brakes. *That's why it is there.
But again - it's a specific technique for a specific condition, not to
be applied universally - and especially not in the G-103! *The skid is
not the same as the nose wheel currently used, it serves a different
purpose.

Kirk


So you are saying that the proper landing technique for a 2-33 is to
jam the stick forward? Or only this technique in off field
landings?

BTW 2-33 normally has pretty good brakes....the drum brake model has
good brakes, the disc brake model has great brakes..........(unless
there is a maintenance problem, which is not the glider's fault).

In off field landing, it is better to deal with rough terrain, or
hitting of unseen objects (rocks, etc) with the main wheel/tire, NOT
THE SKID.

I would argue that stopping with brakes is just as good as stopping
with the skid...........but that arguement would not be necessary if
proper landing technique is used in off field landing..........LOW
ENERGY LANDING.........

After a low energy landing, the glider will need very little braking
if any to come to a stop in a short distance, particularily if the
surface is the typical soft dirt farm field.

Of couse a pilot who was incorrectly trained in the "fly it on"
technique will touch down with considerable extra speed and have a
problem in a short field.


Cookie





  #118  
Old September 20th 10, 01:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 194
Default Future Club Training Gliders

On Sep 19, 12:07*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Sep 18, 6:52*pm, "

wrote:

Please explain further........how is the correct landing procedure for
a 2-33 going to result in a high energy landing in a Grob?


IMHO....the correct landing procedure for a 2-33 (low energy, slow
speed, nose high, tail low, etc) will result in a similar low energy
landing in a Grob..........this would be a short runway landing, with
little or no need for brakes......


Cookie


So, when you are teaching landings to a student in a 2-33, do you
first sit him in the front seat, level the wings, then hold the nose
up until the tailwheel is on the ground and say "this is your landing
attitude"? *Do you do that in a G-103? *Didn't think so. *Where that
tailwheel is relative to the ground is the difference. *The landing
angle of attack is probably about the same, but a student who learns
to land on the main in a 2-33, nice and slow, but never touching the
tailwheel, then who transfers that technique to the G-103, is a prime
candidate for high energy landing problems. *It's not a killer problem
- but it needs to be taught correctly!

Kirk


Correct landing attitude in a 2-33 is NOT tail all the way
down..........this comes under the category of "too slow"

2-33 should be landed tail low, nose high, low energy, slow a
practical, not slow as possible, and the skid kept off the ground as
long as possible during ground roll.

2-33 has a unique shape in that the main wheel is mounted low on the
bulbus belly, and the tail wheel is mounted high on the up swept
fuselage tail.

Grob should be landed nose high, tail low, as slow as practical (tail
first is OK if subtle), nose wheel held off during ground taxi as long
as possible


So tell me agian how a proper low energy 2-33 landing relates to
making a high energy Grob landing???


Cookie
  #119  
Old September 20th 10, 02:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Posts: 194
Default Future Club Training Gliders

On Sep 19, 12:13*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Sep 18, 7:23*pm, "

wrote:
IMHO......a nose dragger glider should be landed with "low
energy" *(slow airspeed), but not so slow that the tail touches first
(too slow)......The nose skid/ wheel should be held off the ground
during the ground taxi, as long as elevator authority allows......when
the nose finally drops, the ground speed is very slow........


Same technique works for 2-33, 1-26, *ASK-21, Grob 103......


This is far different from a "wheel type landing" and far different
form "flying the glider on"


Cookie


Agree on most, but disagree on K-21s and G-103s - their nose wheel is
not the same as a nose skid, and they should be landed tail and main
simultaneously, just like a taildragger. *Reason? *Look at the
achievable angle of attack in the taildown attitude, between a 2-33
and a G-103. *Tail low in a 2-33 is a significant angle of attack,
nice and slow, but with the tailwheel still well off the ground. *Tail
low in a G-103, with the tailwheel not touching the gound, is going to
be really fast!

Kirk


Basically I agree...........2-33 tail wheel does not touch first, (in
fact not a t all) but it must be low tail, high nose, low energy.

Grob tail should also be low, but it just can't go as low as a 2-33
due to fuselage shape, so two point touch down is about as low as the
tail can get.....slight tail first touch down is also good, as it is
slower yet.........

But touching the tail first in a grob, with considerable sink rate
results in the following....

Tail touches, main touches, forward fof main CG pushes nose wheel down
and touches............

This is what I call landing in a heap.........see it all the
time............

Bottom line...........2-33 is landed low energy..........Grob is
landed low energy..........

Properly trained and practiced 2-33 pilot can land a grob
nicely.........

Poorly trained, bad habit 2-33 pilot cannot land a grob nicely (nor
the 2-33)
Cookie
  #120  
Old September 20th 10, 02:08 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default Future Club Training Gliders

On Sep 19, 12:16*pm, "kirk.stant" wrote:
On Sep 19, 7:30*am, bildan wrote:

On Well said.


I would differ a tiny bit in that a very slight tail low touchdown in
a nose wheel glider isn't going to be a problem - but nothing more
than a couple of inches low.


What? *Do you guys actually fly K-21s and G-103s? *Is that what you
teach your students? *No wonder the Euros think we are a bunch of
buffoons!

Disgustedly,

66


Tell us how you and the "eruos" land a Grob or ASK????

Tell us how this would be different than a proper 2-33 landing????

Cookie

 




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