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Future Club Training Gliders



 
 
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  #61  
Old September 16th 10, 04:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JS
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Posts: 1,384
Default Future Club Training Gliders

Frank, the Puchatek AKA "Puke Attack" is a decent trainer. Pretty
rugged, roomy, good visibility and comfort. Looks/feels a bit
utilitarian. You can instruct speed to fly, spins and low energy
touchdown. It winches nicely. There's even an instrument panel in the
back seat and a usable baggage compartment. The wheel brake is a
separate pull handle.
They've had a few ADs, think the latest was airbrake actuators. The
lack of a continued airworthiness (was it actually 5000 hours?)
inspection program will be the end of them.
Barry Aviation (Peregrine) haven't updated their website in many
years.
Jim

On Sep 15, 1:32*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:

How do you like the Puchatek? *OBTW, that's the Krosno KR-03a AKA
Peregrine I mentioned previously.

Frank

  #62  
Old September 16th 10, 06:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 106
Default Future Club Training Gliders

Tom Mara and Bob Whelan;

THANK YOU for being the 'VOICES OF REASON" on this thread! (With
apologies to BK and TC)

As for the rest of you, how about post on the FAA Blanik AD comment
page to inform them of the effect the AD will have on 1/5 of the
training fleet, as most of the students I know can't afford north of
$60 just to get thier rating in Modern glass, and will cease their
training as a result. Your comments here outnumber those on the FAA
page by three to one!

If not able to do so, I imagine the combined hot air on this thread
could be directed vertically with measurable effect!

aerodine
  #63  
Old September 16th 10, 06:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 2,403
Default Future Club Training Gliders

On Sep 15, 10:27*pm, wrote:
Tom Mara and Bob Whelan;

THANK YOU for being the 'VOICES OF REASON" on this thread! (With
apologies to BK and TC)

As for the rest of you, how about post on the FAA Blanik AD comment
page to inform them of the effect the AD will have on 1/5 of the
training fleet, as most of the students I know can't afford north of
$60 just to get thier rating in Modern glass, and will cease their
training as a result. *Your comments here outnumber those on the FAA
page by three to one!

If not able to do so, I imagine the combined hot air on this thread
could be directed vertically with measurable effect!

aerodine


I'm missing the point of just telling the FAA what the effect of the
AD will be on grounding L13 fleet -- I kinda suspect people directly
involved at the FAA know. The FAA seems pretty set that a testing
procedure needs to be developed. They seem to have invested a fair
amount of time and effort lookign at this already and went out of
their way in the recent letter to the SSA to present a nice report.
What is it you actually want people to ask the FAA to do? That the FAA
engineer a test procedure on their own? That they provide more help
(what exactly?) to develop that in collaboration? That they try to
pressure the LAK to do something? That they just accept the past
visual inspection AD?

Thanks

Darryl
  #64  
Old September 16th 10, 07:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
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Posts: 2,099
Default Future Club Training Gliders

On Sep 15, 9:42*pm, JS wrote:
* Frank, the Puchatek AKA "Puke Attack" is a decent trainer. Pretty
rugged, roomy, good visibility and comfort. Looks/feels a bit
utilitarian. You can instruct speed to fly, spins and low energy
touchdown. It winches nicely. There's even an instrument panel in the
back seat and a usable baggage compartment. The wheel brake is a
separate pull handle.
* They've had a few ADs, think the latest was airbrake actuators. The
lack of a continued airworthiness (was it actually 5000 hours?)
inspection program will be the end of them.
Barry Aviation (Peregrine) haven't updated their website in many
years.
Jim

Thanks for the comments.

True, but they are still hoping to build them and service the existing
fleet.

Frank
  #65  
Old September 16th 10, 07:46 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Frank Whiteley
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Posts: 2,099
Default Future Club Training Gliders

On Sep 15, 8:28*pm, Westbender wrote:
On Sep 15, 6:49*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:



On Sep 15, 4:40*pm, wrote:


My club has 25 junior members that must be blind according to your
criteria. They didn't know they weren't supposed to have fun and enjoy
learning to fly in th 2-33.


UH -


1) Note that I didn't participate in any comments about the '21 or the
other expensive glass ships in this thread.


2) I'm guessing your club has other things that are making it
attractive to younger members! *Either you have great instruction, or
a clear stepping-stone approach to flying better ships in the future,
or super-cheap rates, or they were recruited by existing club members
or some club outreach program that excited them, or something along
those lines. *They did not drop in to the club from nowhere, see the
2-33, and decide it was a good idea.


I'd love to know how your club is attracting so many students; and I'd
also love to know how many of them go on to complete their license and
continue to fly with the club.


--Noel


Is it really that hard to believe the 2-33 didn't scare everyone away?
Come one, why don't we stop this silly nonsense about how the 2-33 is
the reason why soaring isn't growing. For goodness sakes. Then there's
the "have to be retrained" boloney after learning to fly in a 2-33. It
serves the purpose it was designed to do very well. Basic training.

I don't recall a single prospective member of our club that came
calling because they saw a "cool looking ship" at the field, or backed
away after seeing the 2-33. All of our students are always clamoring
for instruction time in our trainers. They could care less about the
glass ships that are rigging/derigging/departing/arriving when
training flights are operating. They're not stupid. They all know the
2-33 is not the end of the line. It's only the beginning. If you'd
take the time to talk to new students or even prospective ones,
they'll tell you what their expectations and their intentions are. I
garantee you they understand the concept of basic training and
progression.

By the way, our club has a "stepping-stone" approach to better
performing ships, but we can only afford so much. 2 2-33s, 1 2-22, 2
1-26s, 1 1-34, 1 L23. Not all of our ships are on the flightline due
to instructor shortages (that's another discussion). Our students are
always eyeing the single-place ships and a couple of them already
purchased their own ships. Although they're keeping them in the barn
until they're ready to fly them. That's because they're intelligent
people and not lured around by a carrot dangling on a stick.

If we have to resort to "eye-candy" to lure people to soaring, then
it's not necessarily about flying is it? Maybe it's just a niche and
nothing more.

I wonder how many students are more likely to follow through and
become a licensed pilot or even an owner? One attracted by something
shiny? Or one that is driven by the desire to fly?


I was fortunate that my first glider flight in the early 1970's was 1)
a soaring flight and not a sled ride and 2) in an L-13 and not a
2-33. Had either 1 or 2 been different, e.g. sled ride or 2-22/2-33,
I may not have become interested and gone hang gliding instead.
Before I took such a flight, I studied the topic in my local library
which held the 1967 NG issue of Striedeck's flight, copies of Soaring
Magazine, and several soaring books, include "Old Dog" Wolters "Once
Upon a Thermal". During my university years, somehow I missed Star
Trek and "The Boy Who Flew with Condors". You see, I liked fast boats
and faster motorcycles.

I know several instructors that will not get in the back of a 2-33.
Are you sure it's not the same problem?

Did you watch the video at the link I posted about bringing your club
into the 21st Century?

Are you sure they are stepping stones and not hurdles? See the above
referenced presentation. In effect what they achieved was the same
utilization with fewer gliders. Costs of said gliders were not
significantly different. Insurance costs probably went down. The
FSDO reported a higher standard of pilot check rides. The chapter had
a waiting list for memberships.

Not so much about eye-candy, but more about delivering on the promise
of soaring. I have flown 23/1, 30/1, 40/1 and 50/1. The promise is
not at 23/1. Jean Richard from Canada used to post on RAS for years.
An observation he contributed years ago was that 28/1 soars twice a
much as 23/1 in a ground launch training environment.

A New Zealand study presented at an SSA convention showed member churn
in soaring to be 20%/year everywhere but in the US, where it was 30%.
The reason for the difference was never very clear, but some of us
surmised at the time that 2-33's might be part of the reason, because
many places lacked even your club's stepping stones.

Am I saying crush them all? No. Just plan for the future and roll
over the tin ships to a club lower on the food chain. You are
welcomed to donate your under-utilized, serviceable gliders to the
Collegiate Soaring Assocation, a 501c(3) charitable soaring
organization.

Synthetic ropes make winching 2-22's and 2-33's much more reasonable
since they don't have to lift 200 or more pounds of wire rope.
Several flights for the cost of an aero tow. One of our club members
had 250 hours off the winch by age 16, then they put him in a
Messerschmitt so he could self launch;^)

Students are not necessarily youth. Some of the comments were about
what 'youth' expect. At the moment, youth are in short supply at your
chapter, although in abundance at another chapter with some similar
equipment. Youth like to hang out in groups. It's easy to attract
one or two for a while. If ten or twelve are hanging out at the club,
it's easy to get five or six to bring a friend. Some may stick, then
more show up. I think once you get 10-12, it might be a lot easier to
suddenly have many more, unless some grumps chase them away.

Just some ramblings,

Frank Whiteley

  #66  
Old September 16th 10, 07:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Surfer![_2_]
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Posts: 32
Default Future Club Training Gliders

Please be more careful in future with how you do the posting. It looks like
I wrote 'here we go again', and I most certainly didn't.

"Tony V" wrote in message
...
Surfer! wrote:

Here we go again, the recurring 2-33 "religious" argument. :-) For the
record, I learned in a 2-33 and it's not my favorite trainer.



  #67  
Old September 16th 10, 08:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JS
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Posts: 1,384
Default Future Club Training Gliders

For your information: A reply from Scheibe Aircraft, not that many
seem interested in modernizing the fleet.
Jim

Yes, that is right that we want to produce the SF 34! At the moment we
adjust the forms and fixtures and we want to start the production in
about 4 weeks. The price will be about EUR 65.900,00 (without
instruments and trailer) + tax and the delivery-time is about 5-6
months. So if you want to fly a SF 34 next season you should order
soon.

If you need more information please tell me.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen kindly regards
Katja Sammet

SCHEIBE-AIRCRAFT-GMBH
Am Flugplatz 5
D-73540 Heubach

Tel. 0049 7173 184286
Fax 0049 7173 185587
www.scheibe-aircraft.de
  #68  
Old September 16th 10, 08:12 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
noel.wade
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Posts: 681
Default Future Club Training Gliders

Let me try to make my point by using an analogy:

You're walking around downtown at lunch. You're hungry. There are
many restaurants around that will serve you food. Tucked into the
corner of a building you see a dodgy-looking sandwich shop that
appears to be old, small, rusty, and with fading/peeling paint on it.

How likely are you to walk in and sample the food?
How likely are you to walk in and tell the owner that he'd get more
business if he just spruced the place up and put out better signage?

Aren't you FAR more likely to just keep walking down the road and eat
somewhere else?

Anyone looked at the hang-gliding & paragliding community lately? Huh
- seems like its got a lot of youth involved in it and I keep hearing
about how their numbers are doing OK. Anyone hear a hang-glider
instructor talk fondly about about using a 30-year-old Rogallo wing to
instruct with? How about a Paragliding instructor wishing he was
still using an early-model 'chute (you know, the ones that were more
prone to collapses)?

I'm not laying all of soaring's troubles at the feet of the 2-33 and
I'm not saying that the ship is worthless. But I AM saying that I
think clubs should consider multiple angles when selecting their
training/club aircraft. Looking at it purely from the standpoint of
"dollars to acquire" or "dollars for routine maintenance" is myopic
and ignores a lot of other things. There's a reason businesses look
at "total cost of ownership" and "opportunity cost" when deciding to
buy big-ticket items.

--Noel

  #69  
Old September 16th 10, 12:03 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jimboffin
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Posts: 15
Default Future Club Training Gliders

On 15 Sep, 16:13, Kevin Christner wrote:
I have spent enough time instructing to see two types of students,
Schweizer trained and everyone else. *Place these two types in an
ASK-21. *Schweizer trained students often lack refined control
coordination and almost always have little ability to control pitch
and speed properly. *The other students seem to do much better. *The
Schweizer simply does not require the refined control of more modern
gliders to be flown in a way that seems coordinated. *Being trained in
a Schweizer typically means you will need to be totally retrained to
fly anything else, and the bad habits first learned will often creep
back.

Find me one world team member that thinks primary training in a
Schweizer is a good idea. *I doubt you'll have any glowing advocates.

KJC

On Sep 15, 7:34*am, Tony wrote:



The 2-33 is suffering the same metal fatigue problems in it's wings as
the L-13.


Is this statement based on actual issues with 2-33 wings or just the
fact that "it is metal, it will fatigue eventually"?


I see no mention in any of the Schweizer Service Bulletins about
issues with 2-22 or 2-33 wing structure and have never heard of any
problems either.


I notice that 3 or 4 of the USA World Team members trained in
Schweizers.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


At Booker we use both K21s and K13s. K21s are great for air experience
and early handling as they are safe and easy to fly. Added bonus is
they look modern and don't turn off the punter. The K13s are slightly
harder to fly and spin. As such they are better for training pilots to
solo level. We also own a Duo which is a delight to fly and excellent
for XC and competition training. It is not as robust as the 21, much
slippier with weaker brakes so harder to land, and the view from the
back is not as good. If we were buying another trainer it would
probably be a K21.
  #70  
Old September 16th 10, 02:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony V
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Posts: 175
Default Future Club Training Gliders

Surfer! wrote:
Please be more careful in future with how you do the posting. It looks
like I wrote 'here we go again', and I most certainly didn't.



Yup, my bad. So sorry.

T



"Tony V" wrote in message
...
Surfer! wrote:

Here we go again, the recurring 2-33 "religious" argument. :-) For the
record, I learned in a 2-33 and it's not my favorite trainer.



 




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